Crimping .223 bullets without a cannelure for AR-15

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  • netsecurity

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    So I bought these 50gr Hornady V-Max Varmint bullets during the shortage. Loaded them up with H335. Then learned for the very first time from Andrew that I needed to crimp rounds for use in an AR-15, so I thought "no problem" and ran all 200 of them through the crimping die, which crimped them pretty heavily. Of course, I really didn't want bullet setback to cause an overpressure issue, but I also want to make sure I didn't create other problems.

    Now I'm reading my Lyman manual, and it says that you should only crimp over the cannelure. (Of course, it also says never to use range brass too, which everyone does). So I just need clarification: Are my rounds SAFE to fire being crimped tight without a cannelure [having maximum OAL, and minimum H335 powder]? How should I deal with crimping these V-Max bullets Going forward? I latermfound them in 55gr and bought several boxes.

    Any and all thoughts and opinion is much appreciated.
     

    billybob44

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    So I bought these 50gr Hornady V-Max Varmint bullets during the shortage. Loaded them up with H335. Then learned for the very first time from Andrew that I needed to crimp rounds for use in an AR-15, so I thought "no problem" and ran all 200 of them through the crimping die, which crimped them pretty heavily. Of course, I really didn't want bullet setback to cause an overpressure issue, but I also want to make sure I didn't create other problems.

    Now I'm reading my Lyman manual, and it says that you should only crimp over the cannelure. (Of course, it also says never to use range brass too, which everyone does). So I just need clarification: Are my rounds SAFE to fire being crimped tight without a cannelure [having maximum OAL, and minimum H335 powder]? How should I deal with crimping these V-Max bullets Going forward? I latermfound them in 55gr and bought several boxes.

    Any and all thoughts and opinion is much appreciated.

    Several thoughts here..
    The AR-15 platform rifle was designed to shoot bullets WITH a CANNALURE. Mostly 55+62gr. FMJ's. Military and commerical rounds DO have a crimp on the cannalure.

    If you full length size, you MUST then trim all cases to the exact same length, or the crimp will not be in the same place on the cannalure.

    I can NOT speak for Andrew, but I feel sure that He would NOT tell you to crimp a Non-Cannalured bullet. You can cause more damage to bullet and/or case with too tight of a crimp.
    A case gage is your friend to determine if a round will fire in your rifles.

    For ME--I do NOT crimp a Non-cannalured bullet, no matter what style of rifle (Semi-auto, bolt, etc) it is to be fired in...Bill.
     

    sloughfoot

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    I believe your loaded rounds are safe to shoot. I can't see the possibility of a problem. Without a cannelure, I don't think you should crimp. Neck tension is more than enough to keep the bullet firmly in place.

    Bullet setback in a AR does not happen unless you are having feeding problems. If you are having feeding problems, you will want to fix that and the possibility of bullet setback also goes away.

    Shoot them and report back accuracy with your crimped versus uncrimped bullets. I would be curious to know your experience.

    As for me, I never crimp my match and varmint AR ammo, even if there is a cannelure. I do crimp my 55FMJ military type ammo, but only with a Lee Factory crimp die.
     

    billybob44

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    " Neck tension is more than enough to keep the bullet firmly in place."
    ^^^Sloughfoot is +1 here..

    To the OP, when seating your bullets do you "feel" a firm pressure when seating your bullets? You should. If they go in too easy then you do not have enough neck tension. Case neck tension is applied with the size die assembly.

    A little trick to tighten up your neck tension is to remove your expander rod+polish up the expander 'ball' slightly. Measure EXACTLY the diameter of the rod/ball first, then place in a drill+polish off about .001" from the expander rod/ball. I use 600 or 800 grit sandpaper, followed by Flitz polish for this operation. This will help to tighten up your case neck tension, thus helping to remove the "Need" to crimp your non-cannalured bullets...Bill.

    PS: Most expanders for .224" bullet loads will mic out at .221"-.222", for an appprox .002" "Crush" fit..
     
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    gopurdue02

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    So I bought these 50gr Hornady V-Max Varmint bullets during the shortage. Loaded them up with H335. Then learned for the very first time from Andrew that I needed to crimp rounds for use in an AR-15, so I thought "no problem" and ran all 200 of them through the crimping die, which crimped them pretty heavily. Of course, I really didn't want bullet setback to cause an overpressure issue, but I also want to make sure I didn't create other problems.

    Now I'm reading my Lyman manual, and it says that you should only crimp over the cannelure. (Of course, it also says never to use range brass too, which everyone does). So I just need clarification: Are my rounds SAFE to fire being crimped tight without a cannelure [having maximum OAL, and minimum H335 powder]? How should I deal with crimping these V-Max bullets Going forward? I latermfound them in 55gr and bought several boxes.

    Any and all thoughts and opinion is much appreciated.

    Unless you are near the top of the listed load range I wouldn't worry about your safety. The more immediate concern is your rounds will probably not be very accurate. The excessive crimp will deform the rounds causing variation in the POI. Neck tension is certainly the way to go, but obviously you run into problems if you have a double feed etc and that round is a recycle round and should not be fired. Personally I put the lightest of crimps (like 1/8 of a turn on the crimp die) and call it a day and I have good results for most three-gun matches.
     

    netsecurity

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    Good info. Thanks, you all are so helpful. My Google foo also indicates that it should be safe, and maybe a very light crimp would be more appropriate, if any, going forward. I suspect these will be less than optimal accuracy both due to the crimp and the low charge weight. Since these are my first .223 loads I will be extremely happy to just have them function safely. I know I shouldn't have loaded 200 on my first run, but I was over zealous.

    I have a couple questions about sizing too going forward. I purchased 500 new Lake City brass from Andrew, and after resizing them, I primed them all (again, over zealous noob syndrome). Some of them wouldn't fit in the shell holder, and some were defective, so those were obviously discarded, but now I think I shouldn't trust the length or collet either, even those these are new LC. My plan now is I'm going to use my new caliper to check the case length, and order a Lyman headspace gauge to verify collet/headspacing aspect too. I'm trying to avoid removing those primers, but if a case is too long I know that will be necessary for trimming. Am I on the right track here?

    Lastly, if I did want to use range brass, should I just order the collet resizing die, or is that something more complex that I should hold off on until I have a lot more experience? I really shouldn't NEED to use range brass any time soon, I'm just curious more than anything about this topic, because initially it seemed completely overwhelming, and now I *think* I'm starting to grasp the concepts.
     

    sloughfoot

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    I admit, I don't understand all your questions, but when reloading for an AR15, you should always full length resize.

    I have never seen a 223 case that was too long. Anything 1.760 or shorter is good.
     

    netsecurity

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    I admit, I don't understand all your questions, but when reloading for an AR15, you should always full length resize.

    I have never seen a 223 case that was too long. Anything 1.760 or shorter is good.

    I actually did prime quite a few before learning that I needed to resize new cases. I gently popped out the primers and resized them all, discarding any that were problematic. But that alone doesn't guarantee that the entire shape is correct does it? It primarily just ensures the mouth is good I think. Otherwise, we wouldn't ever need a collet sizing die, if the full length resizing did a comprehensive job of resizing, right? That is the way I understand it. Since I had about 50 new cases that had too thick of a rim, I am concerned that there are others which are misshapen in some way that is unnoticeable to the eye, or the resizing die.
     

    sloughfoot

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    I have never seen the need to FL resize new cases. Or neck size new cases. Some may think that the case mouth may be mis-shapened and be concerned about that. I just have never been concerned about it unless it is obviously smashed. In that case you need to open it up so the bullet can go in.

    I would re-consider the discarded cases. I don't know what "problematic" means. If it fits in the chamber, you are GTG.

    You are worrying about things that don't matter in the huge chamber of your AR15. bench rest chambers are different.
     

    atalon

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    I defer to sloughfoot but just for reference here is a reload I bought where you can see the ridges of the cannalure and how the top of the neck is crimped.

    IMAG0576_zpse77defbd.jpg
     

    billybob44

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    I admit, I don't understand all your questions, but when reloading for an AR15, you should always full length resize.

    I have never seen a 223 case that was too long. Anything 1.760 or shorter is good.

    Once fired brass can very often be too long-1.765" or +. If you load cannalured bullets+want the crimp to be consistaint, they should be trimmed to 1.750".

    I actually did prime quite a few before learning that I needed to resize new cases. I gently popped out the primers and resized them all, discarding any that were problematic. But that alone doesn't guarantee that the entire shape is correct does it? It primarily just ensures the mouth is good I think. Otherwise, we wouldn't ever need a collet sizing die, if the full length resizing did a comprehensive job of resizing, right? That is the way I understand it. Since I had about 50 new cases that had too thick of a rim, I am concerned that there are others which are misshapen in some way that is unnoticeable to the eye, or the resizing die.

    Are you absolutely sure that this is NEW LC Brass--NOT pull down ammo?? All pull down ammo-brass should be at least neck sized.

    I have never seen the need to FL resize new cases. Or neck size new cases. Some may think that the case mouth may be mis-shapened and be concerned about that. I just have never been concerned about it unless it is obviously smashed. In that case you need to open it up so the bullet can go in.

    I would re-consider the discarded cases. I don't know what "problematic" means. If it fits in the chamber, you are GTG.

    You are worrying about things that don't matter in the huge chamber of your AR15. bench rest chambers are different.

    Slough, you usually are 'Spot On' on your posts, but I can NOT agree with this..
    Us Reloaders DO take pride in our work, yes, most anyone can make something to "Fit" into an AR chamber, but that is NOT the idea of reloading!
    Not just me, but most (every that I have read) manuals will tell a reloader to size ALL brass-either FL or at least neck size.

    The idea of reloading is to build GREAT-ACCURATE loads that a person can take pride in with the way they shoot AND look.
    Consistaintsy is the key here--NOT just something that will "Fit" into an AR chamber...Bill.

    PS: Sorry my Spell Check Foo is down..
     

    Leo

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    Literally 10's of thousands of .223 match bullets loaded over 15 years of competition. 52 grain, 69 grain, 75/77 grain. NEVER crimped a single one. I do not crimp my 55 gr soft point hunting bullets even though they have a cannelure. Always used a proper powder that fills the case so you cannot get bullet setback. Full length sized every one.

    A problem with range brass can occur if the guy that loaded it before you didn't know what he is doing. Some dies will allow you to push the shoulder back way too far before it bottoms on the shell holder. When fired, that brass starts stretching about 5/8 inch up from the base. This thin spot decays pretty quickly, and when it breaks during firing, your extractor pulls out what looks like a .380 case, and the body and the shoulder stays in the chamber.
     

    rvb

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    I believe your loaded rounds are safe to shoot. I can't see the possibility of a problem. Without a cannelure, I don't think you should crimp. Neck tension is more than enough to keep the bullet firmly in place.

    Bullet setback in a AR does not happen unless you are having feeding problems. If you are having feeding problems, you will want to fix that and the possibility of bullet setback also goes away.

    Shoot them and report back accuracy with your crimped versus uncrimped bullets. I would be curious to know your experience.

    As for me, I never crimp my match and varmint AR ammo, even if there is a cannelure. I do crimp my 55FMJ military type ammo, but only with a Lee Factory crimp die.

    +1 to all this.

    except I no longer crimp anything. Too damn lazy to set and un-set the crimp die. If no crimp is good enough for my match 69s, it's good enough for my 55s for plinking.

    -rvb
     

    sloughfoot

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    Slough, you usually are 'Spot On' on your posts, but I can NOT agree with this..
    Us Reloaders DO take pride in our work, yes, most anyone can make something to "Fit" into an AR chamber, but that is NOT the idea of reloading!
    Not just me, but most (every that I have read) manuals will tell a reloader to size ALL brass-either FL or at least neck size.

    The idea of reloading is to build GREAT-ACCURATE loads that a person can take pride in with the way they shoot AND look.
    Consistaintsy is the key here--NOT just something that will "Fit" into an AR chamber...Bill.

    PS: Sorry my Spell Check Foo is down..

    Yes, but it really does not matter performance-wise.
    :):
    Everybody realizes that the new brass that you buy was on its way to the factory loading line when it was taken off and boxed up into boxes to be sold by itself? By fate it was not turned into very good match or hunting ammo?

    I don't disagree with anyones decision to neck or FL resize new brass. I just have found it to be not necessary. Ugly dull brass shoots just as well as jewel polished brass.

     

    netsecurity

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    I just wanted to update this thread for accuracy. First I've read in the 2013 Lee catalog that the rifle crimping die is safe to use on all bullets, even without a cannelure, and even is supposed to work well if not perfectly sized. (Their die is somewhat unique, so this information doesn't necessarily apply to other brands). It says basically that their crimp makes for more accurate shots either way.

    Second, I read somewhere (Lyman's I think) that you should always check length, even on new brass, especially bottleneck cases. i did check the length on all my new LC brass, and found no need to resize or destroy any. I think I'm supposed to also chamfer/debur them, which I will do. And I wanted to point out also that I found a tool in the lee catalog made specifically for removing swollen rims, which was the main defect I encountered, so apparently this is not an unusual thing.

    Finally, I wanted to correct my mistaken belief that the collet or neck sizing die was required for range brass. I had that totally backwards. I just learned that the normal full sizing die allows you to use any range brass. As its name implies, it makes the shell conform to factory standards, for use in any gun. It is the neck sizing die that can only be used for brass to fire in the exact same gun. That adds a fraction more accuracy by NOT resetting to factory specs, and really only competition shooters use those, so they don't come with most die sets. i've read warnings and heard myths about reloaded ammo for so many years now and have been perplexed by this, but now I know it is much simpler than I thought--I thought bottleneck cases required a special "advanced" step to make safe (sigh), but the standard resizing die should eliminate all worries. :n00b:

    Amazingly, I think reading the Lee catalog enlightened me more than reading Lyman's and everything else to this point! Now I feel like I'm really starting to understand the basics well. I hope this helps someone else who may be confused by similar issues.
     
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