Green Ammo - less stopping power

[Sfrandolph]

If the military/Obama pushes this I would not enlist and would resign if already in.

Army Giving Up Traditional Ammo & Stopping Power For 'Green' Bullets

 

[Mark 1911]

Betcha the Department of Homeland Security will not be switching from lead bullets. Didn't they just buy up all the lead ammo in sight?? What's going on here?? Change??

 

[cosermann]

Make no mistake "green" ammunition is just the latest liberal attack on the Second Amendment.

 

[netsecurity]

I think we should switch from lead to gold. Isn't it more similar to lead--heavy, and soft? That way when we shoot, it would encourage people to dig up every single round fired, and isn't that green?

A better substitute is probably Bismuth. So why are they using solid copper anyways? Isn't it too light?

Metal Profile: Bismuth

PS - Here is a more detailed article explaining the changes:
Getting the lead out, literally: US Army plans switch to 'green' bullets | The Daily Caller

 

[ZbornacSVT]

We used to shoot bismuth 12ga loads 20 years ago. They were stupid expensive

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Dupe. https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general-political-discussion/306261-army-green.html

As I said in the other thread:

Steel core rounds sure punch through intermediate barriers better, and given the amount of those barriers in urban combat and the non-traditional battlefields we are fighting on these days, I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

Up close it may not do as much damage, but it may do more. Anyone who's studied .223 terminal ballistics knows that the yaw matters A LOT with traditional rounds. If it hits at the appropriate yaw, it tumbles and fragments, destroying a lot more tissue. Unfortunately, yaw at point of impact is effectively random and beyond the control of the shooter or the weapon designer. Relying on yaw is a bad thing. Steel core rounds will be more consistent, but won't have as much potential, so the article is partially correct. They just leave out relevant facts so folks who won't bother to do 20 seconds of research on their own can be outraged, have their preconceived notions validated, and then move on.

Testing of the lead vs steel core rounds:

Army Tests New Green Ammo | Military.com

http://www.aschq.army.mil/ac/aais/io...2137343750.pdf

 

[netsecurity]

Dupe. https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general-political-discussion/306261-army-green.html

As I said in the other thread:

Okay, so where did you hear that they are using steel cores? Everything I've read says the M855A1 and now the M80A1 will be solid copper. As far as I know, armor piercing ammo is not what we're talking about. I did notice that the steel penetrator appears to be very large--about half the bullet size--on the M855A1, and I suspect they had to do that to get the weight higher and achieve their desired goals. Again though, I would think that a heavier bullet would travel further more accurately, and be more wind resistant, as well as maintain more energy for penetration. These new bullets rely on travelling faster apparently.

 

[ljk]

The Army predicts “the use of green 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm ammunition could eliminate the purchase of 3,683 metric tons of lead between 2013 and 2018.”

that's it? 3,683 tons.

current price of lead is 2,056 USD/ton, times 3,683 tons = $7,572,248, divided by 6 years, that is a bit over $1mil a year. what the F you can do with 1mil for the army in a year? virtually nothing.

further more, let's say a common 62gr XM855 5.56 uses 55 grains of lead. 55grain = 3.5639grams. 3,683 tons of lead can produce 103million rounds. divided by 6 years is 171,800 rounds per year.

and 1 DHS order is 1.6 Billion rounds.

 

[ZbornacSVT]

You forgot to use 'what guberment pays' pricing.....it is likely much higher.

 

[Joq867]

You forgot to use 'what guberment pays' pricing.....it is likely much higher.

Even at double, it's just not worth it.

 

[spectre327]

i wonder if all this ammo hoarding is to reduce the supply to make it necessary to buy these green bullets. *GASP*

 

[ljk]

i wonder if all this ammo hoarding is to reduce the supply to make it necessary to buy these green bullets. *GASP*

does it come with subsidies? everything else "green" is subsidized, why not the ammo.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Okay, so where did you hear that they are using steel cores? Everything I've read says the M855A1 and now the M80A1 will be solid copper. As far as I know, armor piercing ammo is not what we're talking about. I did notice that the steel penetrator appears to be very large--about half the bullet size--on the M855A1, and I suspect they had to do that to get the weight higher and achieve their desired goals. Again though, I would think that a heavier bullet would travel further more accurately, and be more wind resistant, as well as maintain more energy for penetration. These new bullets rely on travelling faster apparently.

Clink the links in my post for where I got it, or look at your own picture which has a lable "steel penetrator". I don't know if they are technically armor piercing or not, but note the graph you posted shows it can penetrate the same 3/8" steel at much longer distances. It also shows the weight is the same at 62 grains. I'm no AR expert, I just shot what they gave me, but my understanding is they are pretty sensitive to bullet weight depending on the twist rate, so that likely accounts for the weight being the same.

The point is, its being reported as something endangering our soldiers for the limited gain of reducing lead cleanup and environmental damage. It would appear from both your chart and the sources I listed that this is incorrect, as the new cartridges are more consistent and penetrate better.

 

[88E30M50]

I'd like to see the cost comparison for a single round. I'm guessing a solid copper round is much more expensive than a jacketed lead round.

 

[netsecurity]

Clink the links in my post for where I got it, or look at your own picture which has a lable "steel penetrator". I don't know if they are technically armor piercing or not, but note the graph you posted shows it can penetrate the same 3/8" steel at much longer distances. It also shows the weight is the same at 62 grains. I'm no AR expert, I just shot what they gave me, but my understanding is they are pretty sensitive to bullet weight depending on the twist rate, so that likely accounts for the weight being the same.

The point is, its being reported as something endangering our soldiers for the limited gain of reducing lead cleanup and environmental damage. It would appear from both your chart and the sources I listed that this is incorrect, as the new cartridges are more consistent and penetrate better.

I'm no expert either, but I think I might be psychic. Further research says they are actually using bismuth in the core! Now that is an impressive round for sure. That's where the weight comes from to make it fly true.

The new bullet created for M855A1 ammo has a bismuth-tin alloy core with a steel “stacked-cone” penetrating tip.

So knowing now that it has the same weight [62gr] in a similar sized bullet, I don't think the troops are at risk at all. I guess You could say that I may believe the hype. Originally when the M855A1 came out they said it was All copper, except for the penetrator. Am I the only one that thought that is how it was described? I guess they changed it.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/

 

[Disposable Heart]

I gotta call some BS on their information...

A guy on ARFCOM got a hold of some M855A1 and tested it, frags a HECK of a lot better than standard M855, including at distance. The penetrator doesn't penetrate per sae (yes, it does, but 7 grains of steel isn't what I would call "piercing), it just puts the weight towards the butt to keep it pointing straight for better penetration (point first) against targets than M193.

One thing of note: The M855A1 stuff erodes throats and gas ports quick, it's hot ammo. But to say the bullet has less stopping power (oh, boy, there's a novice phrase right there), is questionable considering the testing done by independent sources. It's no 75 gr Sierra Matchking, but it's still better than the standard M855.