Reloading safety question.

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  • Thegeek

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    I've been reading some reloading guides and data, and with the market the way it is, the "recipe" that's published just isn't available. For example, I have a bunch of Winchester brass, and Remington 115gr FMJ projectiles. Looking at the Alliant reloader's guide, all their listed 9mm stuff is with Speer components and CCI primers. In their load data, it looks like the charge and the OAL change with projectile weight when using the same powder and primer.

    So let's say I choose their Bullseye powder to use with my components. They list their load data for the Speer components as OAL@1.125 and max charge@4.7gr. Is this stuff pretty standard? I know the shape of some bullets is different, so where is the safety margin? Do I match the OAL and start at something 10% less charge? One of the disclaimers they have is "Use only the brands of powder and components shown in our tables. Do not substitute other types." I can't believe it's that sensitive because of what I've read on other guides. On Hodgon's site, they list 2 different bullets for 155gr loads. There's a difference in OAL and diameter of the projectile. I really haven't been able to find any load information for the Remington projectiles, but I can take physical measurements. The diameter is the same as the Speer listed in the guide at .355. I'm going to keep reading and searching, because there's got to be way to determine a margin of safety, but I haven't seen any.
     

    ckcollins2003

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    Generally the max OAL is there so that it will feed from the magazine reliably. While seating a bullet deeper you will experience more pressure and seating longer will generate less pressure. As far as powder charge, since you have 115gr FMJ projectiles, look up a load with your bullseye powder with that projectile, start at the lowest and work up as you need it.

    As long as you start low you shouldn't have any problems.
     

    Broom_jm

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    I've been reading some reloading guides and data, and with the market the way it is, the "recipe" that's published just isn't available. For example, I have a bunch of Winchester brass, and Remington 115gr FMJ projectiles. Looking at the Alliant reloader's guide, all their listed 9mm stuff is with Speer components and CCI primers. In their load data, it looks like the charge and the OAL change with projectile weight when using the same powder and primer.

    So let's say I choose their Bullseye powder to use with my components. They list their load data for the Speer components as OAL@1.125 and max charge@4.7gr. Is this stuff pretty standard? I know the shape of some bullets is different, so where is the safety margin? Do I match the OAL and start at something 10% less charge? One of the disclaimers they have is "Use only the brands of powder and components shown in our tables. Do not substitute other types." I can't believe it's that sensitive because of what I've read on other guides. On Hodgon's site, they list 2 different bullets for 155gr loads. There's a difference in OAL and diameter of the projectile. I really haven't been able to find any load information for the Remington projectiles, but I can take physical measurements. The diameter is the same as the Speer listed in the guide at .355. I'm going to keep reading and searching, because there's got to be way to determine a margin of safety, but I haven't seen any.

    When substituting one brand of brass/primer/bullet for another, the statement in bold is the key. Drop to a starting charge weight and work your way up. As already noted, with most semi-auto pistol loads, the OAL is a minimum length, but you can often load them a little longer, which does provide a margin of safety when changing components.

    Perhaps most important is that you rarely need to go to a MAX charge to get the function and "feel" you want from this type of ammo. Once the gun cycles properly and the accuracy is decent, you don't need to load any hotter. This is often found a few tenths shy of MAX in 9mm loads. :twocents:
     

    shibumiseeker

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    So let's say I choose their Bullseye powder to use with my components. They list their load data for the Speer components as OAL@1.125 and max charge@4.7gr. Is this stuff pretty standard? I know the shape of some bullets is different, so where is the safety margin? Do I match the OAL and start at something 10% less charge? One of the disclaimers they have is "Use only the brands of powder and components shown in our tables. Do not substitute other types." I can't believe it's that sensitive because of what I've read on other guides. On Hodgon's site, they list 2 different bullets for 155gr loads. There's a difference in OAL and diameter of the projectile. I really haven't been able to find any load information for the Remington projectiles, but I can take physical measurements. The diameter is the same as the Speer listed in the guide at .355. I'm going to keep reading and searching, because there's got to be way to determine a margin of safety, but I haven't seen any.

    Here's the deal: As a beginner reloader if you follow the published guidelines you won't go wrong. Period. And until you have enough knowledge and experience you should NOT go outside of those guidelines.

    Here's why.

    You have several variables in building ammo. Charge weight, bullet weight, powder selection, primer selection, OAL, brass, gun chamber, barrel length, temperature, altitude...

    SOME of those variables have large effects, some have minor effects. Some of those variables are NOT linear in their response, some are.

    Any time you have multiple variables that all have to interact together you have a possibility for a response that is far out of proportion to the change made to one, even a minor one.

    So you COULD go well outside of a published "recipe" and most of the time nothing too bad will occur. But some small percentage of the time a minor change in one of those variables when you have already changed some of the others will suddenly have a much greater effect than you anticipated.

    As an example, one of many: there are some powder loads for some calibers where you can stuff the brass full of one type of powder, then cram the bullet in as deep as you can, and nothing bad will happen. But you take another powder, go 10% over MAX, and seat the bullet a hundredth deeper than recommended for that bullet and it blows up the gun. And to add to the confusion, that same combo may blow up one gun but not another because the barrel is different. Or it may do so when it is 90f and the ammo has been sitting in a hot car but not when it is 20f.

    Very experienced loaders know how to read pressure signs, have monitoring equipment to help get an idea of overpressure problems, and have some understanding of which variables are important under which circumstances. Even then they are taking risks when they change variables.
     

    Iroquois

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    Always try your best to follow the recipe ....if you can't , buy more books, look at manufactureers loadsites, ect...you'll eventually find something that works. One thing I like to do is test fire a new load , esspecially in autoloaders. Fire one round and , if the firearm funtions propperly, check the barrel. A short loaded 'squib' load once lodged in my barrel and the next round ruined the gun. There is a minnimum load as well as a maximum load....
     

    PappyD

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    Here's the deal: As a beginner reloader if you follow the published guidelines you won't go wrong. Period. And until you have enough knowledge and experience you should NOT go outside of those guidelines.

    Here's why.

    You have several variables in building ammo. Charge weight, bullet weight, powder selection, primer selection, OAL, brass, gun chamber, barrel length, temperature, altitude...

    SOME of those variables have large effects, some have minor effects. Some of those variables are NOT linear in their response, some are.

    Any time you have multiple variables that all have to interact together you have a possibility for a response that is far out of proportion to the change made to one, even a minor one.

    So you COULD go well outside of a published "recipe" and most of the time nothing too bad will occur. But some small percentage of the time a minor change in one of those variables when you have already changed some of the others will suddenly have a much greater effect than you anticipated.

    As an example, one of many: there are some powder loads for some calibers where you can stuff the brass full of one type of powder, then cram the bullet in as deep as you can, and nothing bad will happen. But you take another powder, go 10% over MAX, and seat the bullet a hundredth deeper than recommended for that bullet and it blows up the gun. And to add to the confusion, that same combo may blow up one gun but not another because the barrel is different. Or it may do so when it is 90f and the ammo has been sitting in a hot car but not when it is 20f.

    Very experienced loaders know how to read pressure signs, have monitoring equipment to help get an idea of overpressure problems, and have some understanding of which variables are important under which circumstances. Even then they are taking risks when they change variables.

    Well said. Lots of great advice here.

    I have 3 reloading guides. The most current is the latest Lyman manual. I have a Speer manual and a Sierra Bullets manual from 1976. Looking at similar loads for 45ACP for example, maximum loads from each manual would vary a great deal. The minimum loads listed would be a little more consistent. When I first started reloading for pistol I would try and work up the hottest load. Later I realized that the "sweet spot" for accuracy and performance was seldom even close to the max on any caliber. So now, most of what I load is in the middle of the load range. Pretty safe.

    I used to reload 22-250. I would push those loads close to max and then watch for warning signs that I was too hot. I had a Ruger M77 bolt action. Too hot loads would result in extraction problems as the brass would expand a little too much. You could even get a shiny ring around the base of the shell that was a result of the brass actually stretching and weakening a tiny bit. That was a sign to back off and quit trying to coax out that last few feet per second of an already hot round. Woodchucks hit with a 50 grain pill at close to 4,000 fps usually didn't travel far.

    Good luck and be safe!
     

    Thegeek

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    Got started with my new toys and I've sized, deprimed, and reprimed 200 rds of 9mm. I also got the flaring, seating, and crimp dies all set for when I can find some powder. Then I moved onto my rifle brass.

    While I was lubing the cases, I felt a small ding in all of them. They're all in the same spot and from what I can determine, it's where they all hit the edge of the ejection port. They're pretty tiny. Maybe a 1/16th. Is this normal on .223 Remmington?
     

    Jarhead77

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    Got started with my new toys and I've sized, deprimed, and reprimed 200 rds of 9mm. I also got the flaring, seating, and crimp dies all set for when I can find some powder. Then I moved onto my rifle brass.

    While I was lubing the cases, I felt a small ding in all of them. They're all in the same spot and from what I can determine, it's where they all hit the edge of the ejection port. They're pretty tiny. Maybe a 1/16th. Is this normal on .223 Remmington?
    I have the same ding in mine. Doesn't seem to be an issue for me.
     

    Slapstick

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    Got started with my new toys and I've sized, deprimed, and reprimed 200 rds of 9mm. I also got the flaring, seating, and crimp dies all set for when I can find some powder. Then I moved onto my rifle brass.

    While I was lubing the cases, I felt a small ding in all of them. They're all in the same spot and from what I can determine, it's where they all hit the edge of the ejection port. They're pretty tiny. Maybe a 1/16th. Is this normal on .223 Remmington?

    A lot of good info in this thread.

    Small dings are common due to brass hitting the deflector and don't cause a problem as long as they're small and the case resizes properly. I suggest getting a case gauge. I use Wilson's that allow you to drop the sized case in to check for case length, shoulder set back and that it was properly resized. Easy to use, just sit it on a hard surface, drop the case in and listen, if you hear a clink then it needs to trimmed, if the case head is sticking up then it may need to be sized using a small base die or you have the die set wrong and if you reload for old milsurps that may have a slight head space problem you can use the gauge to get an idea how far to set the case shoulder forward to compensate for slight head space problems. Anyway every reloader should have case gauges.

    Also take it from someone who's been reloading for a while, resist loading your ammo to max book values. I've found that the best accuracy is obtained in the lower to middle ranges of velocity. It's not worth putting your guns and you through a lot more battering just to gain 10% velocity. From the shooter stand point your not going to notice and you save a little powder to boot.
     

    Kirkd

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    The only exception to substituting components would be for shotshell reloading where you ha e to follow the recipe when it comes to primers and wads.

    for rifle and pistol, i use what ever primer I have (i will substitute like cci with Winchester, but you shouldn't substitute regular with magnum primers). At that point, I would look up a 9mm 115gr FMJ load using your stated powder and start with the minimum load and work up from there.
     

    shibumiseeker

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    for rifle and pistol, i use what ever primer I have (i will substitute like cci with Winchester, but you shouldn't substitute regular with magnum primers). At that point, I would look up a 9mm 115gr FMJ load using your stated powder and start with the minimum load and work up from there.

    You understand that the difference between regular primers across the different brands is greater than the difference between regular and magnum within the same brands don't you? Some regular primers are hotter or more powerful than some other brand magnum primers.

    As I said in my post, 99% of the time it won't be a problem. But it points back to what I said about following the published load data and not having ANY problem and the safest course of action for the new reloader is to not mix things up until they have enough understanding of what the variables are.
     

    Broom_jm

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    Unfortunately you picked a bad example, Kirk. Winchester doesn't make make a "magnum" primer that I know of, because their standard primers are already pretty hot. If you were using CCI 200 rifle primers and switched over to WLR, without a reduction in a near-MAX load, you could be in for quite a surprise.

    There are rules and then there are RULES. So many guys have gotten away with swapping components, because they are using middling charge weights, reporting that there is no danger in that practice. Then, along comes another reloader who takes this as gospel, but exchanges components with MAX loads...KABOOM is a very real possibility.

    Any advice you give that comes with a caveat like "with medium powder charges" is a slippery slope. While it's probably safe to say that primers are the least likely component to cause a problem when swapping one brand/type for another, it is SAFEST to not change any component without backing off and doing a load workup again.
     

    Thegeek

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    I'm really not going that far out of the lines. The way I look at it is there are inert components (bullet and brass) and active components (primer and powder). I'll rephrase.... can I use brass and bullets of the same weight and type (FMJ) interchangeably? I doubt brass has a whole lot to do with it, but can a Remington 115gr FMJ be used in place of a Speer 115gr FMJ when the load data states a Speer?
     

    shibumiseeker

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    I'm really not going that far out of the lines. The way I look at it is there are inert components (bullet and brass) and active components (primer and powder). I'll rephrase.... can I use brass and bullets of the same weight and type (FMJ) interchangeably? I doubt brass has a whole lot to do with it, but can a Remington 115gr FMJ be used in place of a Speer 115gr FMJ when the load data states a Speer?

    That is the problem. The answer is: probably. For low to middle charge weights, probably. As Broom_jm says up there, the whole "staying in the middle of the charge weights is a slippery slope." Because you do that for a while and you start to think, hey, I've never had any problems. So you up the charge a little. Still no problems. So you get the charge up near max, it's shooting fine. Then you change some other variable and maybe it's not so fine. Maybe it is. That's the problem with doing something where 99.9% of the time you have no issue. That .1% of the time can really bite you when you least expect it.

    Brass and bullets are inert, sure, but the differences between different ones STILL affect the outcome.

    A responsible reloader won't tell you that you absolutely won't have any problems with your swap.

    The good news is that if you are wearing your safety gear, in modern handguns you probably won't be seriously hurt if a gun blows up. I've had a handgun grenade on me, and other than a blood blister on my finger and a deep scratch on the lens of my safety glasses, I was fine. Many folks here on InGO have had handguns blow up on them with similar results. And the nice thing about modern quality 9mm handguns is that they are built to take +P loadings, so if you stumble upon a combination that is super hot you probably won't do more than beat the crap out of the gun. Do that with .40s&w though and you will probably destroy the gun.
     

    Broom_jm

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    While cases and bullets may be inert, chemically speaking, differences in case capacity and bearing surface, respectively, add to the dynamics of load development. As a matter of fact, the case, or exact bullet, used in a given load recipe may have MORE of an effect on operating pressure than the primer used. The most salient point here is that most folks understand you can't just change to a different powder and use the same charge weight; that's obvious. The same thing really applies to the other 3 components, as well, just to lesser degrees.

    In metallic cartridge reloading, the safest thing we can do is follow the data in load books or on reputable websites. Even then there are caveats to be aware of, such as watching for the various signs of pressure that might indicate your gun is reacting to a given load differently. As I've said before, reloading is something where you either KNOW what you're doing, or you don't...and not knowing has potentially dangerous consequences. With a little reading and adherence to published data, it's neither difficult nor dangerous to load very safe and effective ammo.

    It's only when people start thinking they're smarter than the load books that bad things happen.
     

    Thegeek

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    Shot my first handloads today. Probably the tightest grouping I've ever shot at 20'.

    Winchester brass, CCI 500 primers, Remington 115gr (.355) FMJ projectiles, Hodgdon titegroup 4.48-4.52gr.

    Pretty good feeling shooting your own loads!
     

    Broom_jm

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    Glad to hear you found a recipe that works well in your gun! :) Now you just locate more of those components and load up a bunch.
     
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