DANGER -- Deteriorated Powder

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  • cedarthicket

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    Above is a picture showing some 7 x 57 Mauser cases after firing them on July 4, 2003. The cases had been loaded in 1984 with BL-32 (military surplus) stick powder (roughly equivalent to IMR 4895). I recall that when I loaded the ammo in 1984 I noticed a few specks of "rust" in the powder, but the powder did not have an acid odor and it seemed to work just fine in 1984. But, something happened (or continued to slowly happen) in the next 19 years while the ammo was in storage.

    Please note, before I fired this ammo in 2003 all loaded cartridges appeared quite normal on the outside.

    Case #1 -- This was the second round of a 5-shot group with Remington brass, first reload, 44 gr. BL-32, 120 gr. Sierra bullet. The 5-shot group was 0.52" at 50 yards. The brittle case neck is split/cut halfway through. The other four cases did not split. The average velocity was 2826 ft/sec and the extreme spread was 114 ft/sec.

    Case #2 -- This was the first round fired with a case that showed a vertical neck split before firing. Now the fired case shows an additional connecting horizontal split starting at neck-shoulder junction. This was Winchester brass, first reload, 42 gr. BL-32, 130 gr. Speer PSP.

    Case #3 -- This was the second round fired with the same load. The case "lost" its neck. Apparently it went up the bore with the bullet.

    Case #4 -- This was the third round fired with the same load. The case neck stuck in the forward end (note taper) of the chamber. This piece was retrieved with a bronze bristle brush without difficulty.

    Although scientifically interested in what was going on, I quit shooting out of concern for my own safety, and the condition of my rifle. Back home I pulled the bullets from all 32 unfired rounds. In all the rounds I found considerable green sticky crud in the powder that was near the bullet bases. And, all the bullet bases were severely corroded. The powder had all gone “bad” and the cases were, of course, too brittle and weak to ever be reused.
     

    IndyGunworks

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    I very seldom use milsurp, but I certainly have never hear of any issues like this. Do you think the brass became weak from the inside out? Can you post any pictures of the corrosion and the "gummy" stuff?
     

    shibumiseeker

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    Mulsurp pulldown powder should never be used for long term loaded rounds! It can have contaminates that can do just that. You should also be very careful storing it because there have been instances of spontaneous decomposition causing fires.

    Virgin powder doesn't have these issues, but the pulldown stuff that is great because it could be gotten for a couple bucks a pound should pretty much only be used for plinking ammo that will be used soon, not stashed away.
     

    cedarthicket

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    were those new cases? that looks like the brass hardened & cracked.. powder could do that , but i have seen it more often with brittle brass.
    They were either new unprimed cases, or relatively new once-fired factory loaded cases, when I first loaded them with the milsurp powder in 1984. The picture itself is not very high quality.
     

    kwatters

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    Mulsurp pulldown powder should never be used for long term loaded rounds! It can have contaminates that can do just that. You should also be very careful storing it because there have been instances of spontaneous decomposition causing fires.

    Virgin powder doesn't have these issues, but the pulldown stuff that is great because it could be gotten for a couple bucks a pound should pretty much only be used for plinking ammo that will be used soon, not stashed away.

    I guess I have some shooting to do this summer, 16 lbs to use up...
     

    shibumiseeker

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    I guess I have some shooting to do this summer, 16 lbs to use up...

    No need to use it up right away, but I wouldn't store it near anything flammable. There was a pretty good thread on arfcom a few years ago about a guy who had some of his powder start smelling "off" so he set the jug outside against a concrete block wall and when he came home the jug had ignited and flared against the wall. You can find several first-had reports of similar happening with a quick search. If it doesn't smell or look bad there really isn't any problem, but once it starts to deteriorate it happens more and more rapidly as the decomposition products basically cause the rest of the powder to deteriorate faster. Bulk containers can get hot enough to self-ignite, though I've never heard of it happening in 1lb containers.
     

    cedarthicket

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    I very seldom use milsurp, but I certainly have never hear of any issues like this. Do you think the brass became weak from the inside out? Can you post any pictures of the corrosion and the "gummy" stuff?
    I do not have any pictures showing the deteriorated powder and insides of the cases in which the bullets were pulled from the 7 x 57 Mauser ammo. However, I have a few pictures of some .30-40 Krag ammo that show the deteriorated powder and its effects pretty well. When I get a little more time tonight or tomorrow I will get them out and post them to this thread. As I recall the pictures are good quality.
     

    Mgderf

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    I have some surplus .303 British ammo that has a pretty strong ammonia smell present when you open the can.
    Is it safe to shoot from an Enfield that's in good shape?
     

    shibumiseeker

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    I have some surplus .303 British ammo that has a pretty strong ammonia smell present when you open the can.
    Is it safe to shoot from an Enfield that's in good shape?

    Probably, the Enfields were built pretty stout, but if you fire some and find them hotter than normal seeming I'd ditch the lot. You can pull a couple bullets to check the condition of the powder.

    GENERALLY as powder ages or deteriorates it gets less powerful, but some powders can have the grain "embrittle" and shatter when hit by the priming charge thus leading to a faster burn. That's powder grain type specific though, so not universally true.
     

    tenring

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    And as a side note, if anyone has any '06 brass that is FA57M, FA59M, that is once fired, do not load it or if you have loaded it, do not use it. Get rid of it, as it was made with a different draw process and is not safe to use PERIOD!
     

    cedarthicket

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    Following are 3 pictures that show the effects of deteriorated powder on some .30-40 Krag ammo. I examined the ammo and took the pictures in 2007. I did not try to shoot any of it, and I did not record with the pictures the date it was originally loaded with the BL-32 stick powder. As you can see from the first picture all 10 rounds were not affected equally, but ALL were UNSAFE to fire, even the best-looking ones that could have had the outside of the case “cleaned up” of the tarnish. I was not going to fire any of this batch in my Krag rifle, and I sure as h*** would not try to pass them on to another Krag rifle shooter!!


    Numbering from left to right, note that the #2 and #5 cases were so badly corroded that the bullets broke off with the case necks around them when they were pulled!! Case #6 was also badly corroded in the neck-shoulder area. The bullet had not yet been pulled. The other 7 cases showed some tarnish (#8 & #9 a fair amount of dark tarnish). However, cases #1, 3, 4, 7, & 10 showed very little tarnish, probably not enough to raise a red flag to the casual observer had they been in a separate group of loaded ammo.






    This is a closeup of rounds #5 and #6 (as numbered from left to right in the first picture of all 10 rounds). You obviously could not shoot round #5, and anybody with common sense would not likely try to shoot #6. Please note the small spot of corrosion at just about the position of the top of the “solid web” of case #5. You can see it really well on case #6. And, yes, this corrosion (as well as the obvious corrosion at the base of the necks on cases #2 and #5) started from the inside of the cases. Firing a round with such corrosion that low on the case could be extremely dangerous.






    This is a closeup of one of the best-looking rounds. I am not sure which one of the 10, but a casual observer of the loaded round would probably not have suspected what it looked like inside and the possible danger in firing it. Note the tarnish/corrosion on the outside of the case near the neck-shoulder junction. Note the green crud sticking to the inside of the case where the base of the bullet had been. Note also the powder grains “sticking” to the inside of the case just below where the base of the bullet had been.

     
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