Detonation, does anyone have any experience or insight

[sht4brnz]

44 MAGNUM EXPLOSION

I came across this article and got me thinking. My understanding is that these photos claim to be the result of a flame front from two directions inside the cartridge, would that in turn suggest that they were using too fast a powder that didn't sufficiently fill the capacity of the cartridge?

 

[Fargo]

I am a bit skeptical of the detonation theory, Charlie Petty researched it and was of the opinion that it was normally an excuse for a double charge or that multiple cylinders touched off at once. It is my understanding that no one has ever been able to produce a "detonation" of a small amount of smokeless, even using blasting caps.

The pics in the link look like multiple cylinders firing.

 

[j706]

I know they happen for some reason. I always though they happened with reduced type loads of fast burning IE: shotgun and pistol powders. I always figured it was a result of a low or small fast burning powder charge resulting in not enough pressure to propel the round out and thereby causing a detonation instead of deflagration. Deflagration is the process of any normal firearm discharging-propelling the bullet by gradually increasing pressure instead of the powder charge detonating all at once. I always thought these was for fast burning powders only. Whatever the cause it is still spooky stuff. I read up on the subject when I undertook 300 BO loading. It seems that there are a number of different theory's on its cause.

 

[mssmith44]

For another possibility, I have a Smith and Wesson 44 revolver from a friend that looks absolutely identical to the one in this article.
It had a known double charge of 231. 22 grains.
Caution when loading fast powder in big cases.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Classic double charge.

 

[djones]

Agree on double charges. People simply make mistakes.

 

[ghitch75]

never have shot universal but it has above the same burn rate as unique and run 7.0gr in 45 Colt's......no booms!!!!!.......now 21gr of unique wood cause a boom.....

double or triple charge would do it!!!!!

 

[Leo]

Detonation has been the mystical excuse for blowing up high end shotguns as long as I remember. Lots of theories about unseated or twisted wads, hung up shot columns, loose base wads, too much fine power dust in the powder granuals. I do not buy it, as I have seen way too many guys cranking out 100's of reloads on powered progressive presses while drinking scotch on the rocks. I am far from the expert.

There is a high end gunsmith In Sturgis S.D. that has been TRYING to make a detonation so he can blow up a gun on video. Multiple years he has been documenting and has never been even close. I have read dozens of articles on the internet about "detonation" blowing up guns. Some are pretty well presented and have semi scientific theories, but they never are able to prove it. I have seen a high dollar shotgun blow up during a round of trap. Of course it was blamed on a detonation. The barrel split right through the mono block. In my mind, the 3 or more dud shots the guy had out of his reloads makes me suspect sloppy loading rather than the illusive detonation.

 

[Vamptepes]

I like how they say that the lead bullet one was meticulously loaded by an experienced loader so it couldn't be overcharged. I say that guy overcharged or seated to low or way to excessive roll crimp. To many things he could of done wrong. Just because he was "experienced" doesn't make his rounds any better then my rounds and doesn't suddenly mean he couldn't of screwed up and just won't admit it.

 

[Whip_McCord]

For at least the last two decades, I have read many articles trying to explain this phenomenon (or myth). None have been able to reproduce this. Like Leo and Vamptepes noted, loader error is most likely to blame. Either double charge of the light powder load or the previous round was a squib, stuck in the barrel. I am leaning more towards the squib theory. I suspect that a bullet stuck just into the forcing cone may not bulge the barrel, but still produce exceedingly high pressure. I have loaded thousands of rounds (38, 45 ACP & Colt, and 44) with light loads of Clays powder and never had an issue. The load listed in the article was with Universal, not that fast a powder. It has a much slower burn rate than what is normally theorized for the detonation to occur. Those are my thoughts.

 

[6mm Shoot]

Some years back I read about a guy blowing up a 38 by loading a round that didn't cover the primer with powder. His claim was that the primer when fired started all the powder burning at once because of the primer flashing over the powder and not through it. He claimed all you had to do was use a peace of cotton over the powder so the powder would stay at the primer and not flatten out over the length of the case and allow it to flash over. I have also heard of guys taking shotgun wads and cutting them down to fill the case over the powder in the 45 long Colt for light loads that they used in cowboy shooting.

I have no idea if it is true or not. He was working with a lot of squib loads and claimed he had blown up two 38s before learning to use the cotton to fill the case so the powder would stay in place.

Now some of you are saying that it was a double charge. I can't put a double charge in a 44 mag case using 22.5 gr of H110 it will spill all over the place. It just will not fit. I don't know about the powder he was using. I don't know how much space his charge would take up.

I don't do squib loads. I have no idea what they are used for. I don't do max loads either. I think they are to hard on the guns. I do try to use powders that fill a case to at least 80% of the case. That way I know the primer is covered and goes through the powder and not over it.

 

[Robjps]

Some years back I read about a guy blowing up a 38 by loading a round that didn't cover the primer with powder. His claim was that the primer when fired started all the powder burning at once because of the primer flashing over the powder and not through it. He claimed all you had to do was use a peace of cotton over the powder so the powder would stay at the primer and not flatten out over the length of the case and allow it to flash over. I have also heard of guys taking shotgun wads and cutting them down to fill the case over the powder in the 45 long Colt for light loads that they used in cowboy shooting.

I have no idea if it is true or not. He was working with a lot of squib loads and claimed he had blown up two 38s before learning to use the cotton to fill the case so the powder would stay in place.

Now some of you are saying that it was a double charge. I can't put a double charge in a 44 mag case using 22.5 gr of H110 it will spill all over the place. It just will not fit. I don't know about the powder he was using. I don't know how much space his charge would take up.

I don't do squib loads. I have no idea what they are used for. I don't do max loads either. I think they are to hard on the guns. I do try to use powders that fill a case to at least 80% of the case. That way I know the primer is covered and goes through the powder and not over it.

I really doubt 2 grains of bullseye in 38spl wadcutters "cover the primer with powder" and out of roughly ten thousand i haven't blown up yet.

 

[Leo]

I remember when 6mm's comment about holding the powder down with fiber had somewhat of a following. I do not remember detonation as part of it, but lack of squibs and improved accuracy. The Bench rest boys claimed that stuffing a wad of dacron into the case to hold the powder column firmly created a more uniform burn, thus better accuracy. I never did it as I usually use powder that makes full if not compresses loads. 4831 fills a 7mm case, IMR 4064 pretty much fills a 7.62 case, Varget is a compressed load in the 5.56 case.

I did notice some inconsistancy with TiteGroup in powder puff .38 wadcutter loads. Switching to a bulkier powder eliminated that problem. It is funny that I did not have the problem in the .44 spl wadcutter loads. I guess the powder was not resting against the primers for ANY of those big volume cases, so they were more consistant. I have not experimented a lot with .45 COLT, but they are pretty huge volume for just a few grains of smokeless powder.

 

[Whip_McCord]

Some years back I read about a guy blowing up a 38 by loading a round that didn't cover the primer with powder. His claim was that the primer when fired started all the powder burning at once because of the primer flashing over the powder and not through it. He claimed all you had to do was use a peace of cotton over the powder so the powder would stay at the primer and not flatten out over the length of the case and allow it to flash over. I have also heard of guys taking shotgun wads and cutting them down to fill the case over the powder in the 45 long Colt for light loads that they used in cowboy shooting.

I have no idea if it is true or not. He was working with a lot of squib loads and claimed he had blown up two 38s before learning to use the cotton to fill the case so the powder would stay in place.

Now some of you are saying that it was a double charge. I can't put a double charge in a 44 mag case using 22.5 gr of H110 it will spill all over the place. It just will not fit. I don't know about the powder he was using. I don't know how much space his charge would take up.

I don't do squib loads. I have no idea what they are used for. I don't do max loads either. I think they are to hard on the guns. I do try to use powders that fill a case to at least 80% of the case. That way I know the primer is covered and goes through the powder and not over it.

A squib load is not done on purpose. That is when too little or no powder is in the case and the bullet gets stuck in the barrel. That seems to have caused Brandon Lee's (Bruce Lee's son) death while making The Crow. That was interesting to find out.

The detonations mentioned are not magnum loads with slower powders. You will not double charge those. It is with light loads with fast powders. As I stated earlier, my theory is a bullet stuck in the barrel from too light a charge and the next round blows up.

I was never fond of the practice of using a filler or wad over light pistol rounds. That seems to invite its own set of problems. One of the reasons I like Clays powder is that it is bulkier than most and takes up a little more room in the case. Red Dot is similar in bulk. I have never used a wad or filler in my 45 Colt rounds. I use a load of Clays that is a little below max (my wife likes that load) and never had any problems. We have shot tens of thousands of rounds of 45 loaded that way.

Your method of using powders the fill most of the case is valid and mostly preferred. Sometimes you need a lighter load and that is where light charges of fast powder come into play. You need to test the loads and not try to go too light. When caution is used in developing a light load, they can be very useful, accurate, and also help some shooters that are recoil shy.