Do you Anneal your Brass?

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  • rala

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    HI: I have recently been shooting an older 22 Hornet gun. I had the usual problems with the thin wall brass getting beat up by the reloading process. I've got all that worked out, but the cases only last 4-5 reloads. My Dad shot High Power and he taught me to anneal cases. those were 30-06 and we did it by hand in a dark room. I haven't been doing it to my 308/223 cases since large caliber brass is readily available. I can't say that for the 22 Hornet brass. I have tried annealing, but either not enough or too much heat. I know timing is everything, but can't seem to get the hang of the little, thin wall cases.

    Any Suggestions?
    thanks
    Bob
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    Hi,
    I reload 22 Hornet with a friend. I have access to a Guraid annealer which eliminated the problems for me that you are having. Recommendations are to reduce heat and duration of heat. It doesnt take a long time or temperature to anneal necks on 22 Hornet. Remember that when heating the necks that blue is good and orange is over annealed, in most cases. My suggestion is to buy Temple sticks or paint in 450 degree and 750 degree, these can be bought or ordered from most welding supply stores. The higher temperature for the necks and the lower temperature for the where the case tapers, like where the shoulder would be.
    What is the reason your cases are failing after 5 or 6 reloads?
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    That may be true, it makes no difference to me. I do know that it will make neck tension more even across your brass and that will give you smaller standard deviation in fps and that is always a good thing. I also know that if i anneal, i split alot less necks than when i dont.
     

    NKBJ

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    It depends upon the degree that the brass is being worked by
    Your chamber dimensions
    Your load
    Your dies.

    If you can figger out how much to anneal to make your set up work better for you then good deal.
     

    bstewrat3

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    I use a Lee case holder intended for their hand trimmers in a cordless screwdriver to hold cases and then heat with a Bernzomatic ST200 fine flamed butane torch. The precision is much better than using a propane torch. For a case the size of the 22 Hornet I think this will give you the best results.
     

    1911ly

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    I have been reading up on it and watching Youtube videos the last few months trying to learn what I can about it. From what I have read and saw on line the temp and the length of time and the evenness of the heat is everything. And the fact that it needs quenched in water right after it's hot enough. Timing and temp seem to be everything. To much heat and your brass is to soft or damaged.


    I see where guys are using this stuff in conjunction with 2 torches.

    Tempilaq Temperature Indicator 750 Degree 2oz

    I might try it at some point. 300wm is pricey and doesn't seem to reload many times.
     

    natdscott

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    I do. Contrary to Clay's logic, the trick to avoiding dangerous annealing of the case web is to use a LOT of heat, on only the neck, FAST. Use a metronome at about 150 bpm if you are counting manually to allow for precision timing and fine graduations in length of time.

    And yes, case life is increased when done properly, shibumiseeker.
     

    oldpink

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    Maybe I'm not quite right on some of the details, but I recall reading in a gun magazine quite a while ago that one of the best and easiest ways to anneal is to have all the brass standing upright in a pie pan, standing in enough water to fully submerge the case head and web.
    One case at a time, a torch is then used to heat the neck and shoulder to the right temperature color, then immediately toppled over with a piece of stiff wire to instantly quench it.
    The key is to ensure that the torch is set at the proper level before starting the process, then the heat is applied from as consistent a distance, angle, and duration as possible to get the anneal as uniform as can be done.
    The water serves a nice dual purpose of instantly cooling each case neck and shoulder, while at the same time protecting the case head and shoulder from being softened in the process.
     

    shibumiseeker

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    near Bedford on a whole lot of land.
    I do. Contrary to Clay's logic, the trick to avoiding dangerous annealing of the case web is to use a LOT of heat, on only the neck, FAST. Use a metronome at about 150 bpm if you are counting manually to allow for precision timing and fine graduations in length of time.

    And yes, case life is increased when done properly, shibumiseeker.

    -shrug- everyone says so. I'd like to see the data. Every time I ever asked in the past I got lots of anecdotal evidence but no one could point to the data. That's the beauty of science: you post your methodology and results and someone else is free to prove you wrong. I have no dog in the fight, I just wanted data.
     

    NKBJ

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    Each case design and chamber is a different story. And different makers of brass have different chemistry and hardness.
    375x45-70, 9.5x52, 28 Long Neck (30-06 case run full length into a 7-08 sizer), I've had some OH NO! moments... you just have to figure out what works with what you have on your hands. Made some 7.62x51 from old .270 cases one time and annealed too much. The bullets wanted to slip out of the case necks!
    :laugh:

    On the .22 Hornets splitting, if you can start off with finding the softest brand of brass available it might work out better for you.
    Another approach might be to limit the amount of case neck expansion. Changing loads can help. Slower powder. Or lower pressure loads. Larger diameter cast bullet can help too if you want to.
     

    oldpink

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    Just as another thought, given how notoriously fragile .22 Hornet brass can be, a better solution might be to just get the barrel rechambered to a slightly larger .22 centerfire with a much more durable case and better muzzle velocity, such as .218 Bee or even .222 Remington.
    It should be as simple as using a chamber reamer to remove enough steel to fit the larger cartridge and having the bolt face opened up just a wee bit to fit the larger diameter case head.
     

    NKBJ

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    HI: I have recently been shooting an older 22 Hornet gun. I had the usual problems with the thin wall brass getting beat up by the reloading process. I've got all that worked out, but the cases only last 4-5 reloads. My Dad shot High Power and he taught me to anneal cases. those were 30-06 and we did it by hand in a dark room. I haven't been doing it to my 308/223 cases since large caliber brass is readily available. I can't say that for the 22 Hornet brass. I have tried annealing, but either not enough or too much heat. I know timing is everything, but can't seem to get the hang of the little, thin wall cases.

    Any Suggestions?
    thanks
    Bob

    Bob,
    I'd be shooting flat nosed wheel weights as heavy as the rifling will stabilize. But hey, that's the way I grew up and never learned any better.
    How big is the inside diameter of the case necks after firing? Maybe sizing them down so much won't be needed.
     

    rala

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    thanks for all the info. I have read about the pan, but also heard its hard to evenly heat the cases. Awkward moving the big torch around the little piece of brass.
    I have to size the neck after shooting. I've tried Hornady 40 & 45 grain V-Max and Nosler 35 grain HP. Not tried any cast bullets.

    As to re-chambering - its a family heirloom (Martini single shot) . I have a ruger #1 in 222 Rem- another family Heirloom. Nice round. I really like shooting the 22 Hornet.
     

    oldpink

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    thanks for all the info. I have read about the pan, but also heard its hard to evenly heat the cases. Awkward moving the big torch around the little piece of brass.
    I have to size the neck after shooting. I've tried Hornady 40 & 45 grain V-Max and Nosler 35 grain HP. Not tried any cast bullets.

    As to re-chambering - its a family heirloom (Martini single shot) . I have a ruger #1 in 222 Rem- another family Heirloom. Nice round. I really like shooting the 22 Hornet.

    Good luck to you, and it's completely understandable to keep your tangible family heritage unchanged.
    One more option that looks promising would be to use the Redding Type S neck bushing die - https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0007671102/22-hornet-type-s-neck-bushing-die
    The way these work is that there is only a depriming rod with no neck expander ball, with an interchangeable bushing that sizes the neck portion only a precise amount.
    Unlike with conventional sizing dies that first reduce the neck portion, then run an expander ball through it enough to allow the bullet to seat, the benefit of the Redding die is that it only works the neck area once by reducing it just enough to securely hold the bullet.
    Better still, you can select bushing size increments to minimize how much the neck diameter is reduced to further minimize how much the brass is worked.
    Some of these bushings are conventional steel, while others are carbide - Graf & Sons - Search results for 'redding die bushing .22' - Graf & Sons
    You maximize brass life by not work-hardening it nearly as much as with the standard technique, and you have more precise sizing that will (at least in theory) give you more accurate loads.
    The only issue with the Redding die is that it's rather expensive, but it's a Redding product, which means top quality.
    The die in the first link above is the neck sizer only, not the full length version, which is here - https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0007677102/22-hornet-type-s-full-size-bushing-die
    Obviously, that Martini is a single shot falling block, so I'm unsure about whether you can reliably chamber your loads without full length sizing, but if you can neck size only and still chamber, it would be preferable to use the neck sizer version.
    Another thing to consider is that you'll definitely want to research exactly which bushing to use for .22 Hornet, either here or on another forum frequented by reloaders who have dealt with the unique issues of this cartridge, and you would be best served by using only one brand of brass to ensure as much consistency as possible with sizing.
    Once you've determined exactly how to set up with this die, you more than likely can forget about annealing altogether.
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    thanks for all the info. I have read about the pan, but also heard its hard to evenly heat the cases. Awkward moving the big torch around the little piece of brass.
    I have to size the neck after shooting. I've tried Hornady 40 & 45 grain V-Max and Nosler 35 grain HP. Not tried any cast bullets.

    As to re-chambering - its a family heirloom (Martini single shot) . I have a ruger #1 in 222 Rem- another family Heirloom. Nice round. I really like shooting the 22 Hornet.

    Hi. There is no need to cool the brass off in water during the annealing process, once you remove the heat sorce from the brass instantly the annealing of the brass stops. You have to have higher temperature to continue to soften the brass.
    Its not like annealing ferris metal.
    Like mentioned above you might look into just neck sizing your hornet brass.
    Instead of burning big money buying a Redding bushing die and multiple bushings i would just buy a standard neck sizing die from Lee or one of the other reasonably priced dies.
    What dies are you now using to size your Hornet brass.

    And inless i missed it you didn't post how your Hornet brass fails.

    And if you rechamber it i certainly would not go to 219 bee under any circumstances, If folks think Hornet brass is hard to find, try to find Bee brass for sale at retail prices.
     

    phidelt208

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    If you are trying to keep all your rounds consistent Annealing is one step you should be doing, but you have to desire that .5 moa group for it to truly matter.
     
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