45 Colt Question

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  • bobjones223

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    Ok, if you have been paying attention I am still working on getting baby girls Circuit Judge shooting well. This question is more about the round than the gun though.

    So I hand weighted by powder charges on a digital scale and had a 160fps spread from high to low. I am currently using 8.8gr of CFE Power Pistol and after chronograph getting ready to bump it up to 9.0gr. The question I have is can the spread be due to a small charge in a large case and has anyone played around with installing a small cardboard disc into the brass to keep the powder charge central and uniform against the primer?

    This has been rolling though my mind and thought I would see if I was playing with fire and getting ready to blow myself up? Or has anyone tried it with success?
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    I suspect it's the gun. The long cylinder and frequently oversized barrel aren't really conducive to consistency or accuracy. Maybe try the same chamber 5 times and seeing what the spread is? I've used smaller charges and had about 50 fps spread high/low. You can also test for position sensitivity by tilting the barrel up between each shot, insuring the powder is back against the primer.


    *edit, sorry, misread my notes. I thought I'd chrono'd CFE through the Redhawk, but that was using Titegroup. The CFE loads were .45 ACP.

    CFE is position sensitive if it leaves a lot of case volume, as an example it works great in .38 wadcutters but lousy in round nose.

    For reference, here's the results for .45 Colt, 6.6 gr Titegroup, 230 gr plated and CCI primer:

    805.3
    769.9
    787.8
    787.9
    733.4

    Winchester primer:

    761.7
    813.8
    838.3
    799.9
    789.6
     
    Last edited:

    bobjones223

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    Have you tried Trailboss?
    It will fill the case and shoots soft.

    Well I have been looking at it but haven't picked up any yet. It is on the list. I started out with the CFE Pistol because I was liking the fps v/s psi numbers the Hogdon site was showing with 1,014fps at 13,000psi out of a 7.5" barrel. Got me thinking that should get me into the 1,200 fps out of the carbine. I am currently averaging 980fps with the 8.8gr load and can go up to 9.2gr
     

    Mgderf

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    Well, you're not going to get 1200FPS with Trailboss.
    You'd be lucky o break 900fps.
    That said, it is a pleasure to shoot, and will still take a deer.
     

    bobjones223

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    Well, you're not going to get 1200FPS with Trailboss.
    You'd be lucky o break 900fps.
    That said, it is a pleasure to shoot, and will still take a deer.

    I am sure the Trailboss will be a good round and plenty good for deer but as it stands the first powder I got for the 45 Colt was the CFE and want to see if I can get it to work before I turn around and buy a pound of something else. The CFE can always be used to feed my 9mm's and I have Tightgroup I can also try with the 45 Colt.

    CFE Pistol says it is not position sensitive but it still gets me back to the original question of has anyone ever heard of adding a small powder wad to the case.
     

    bobjones223

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    I suspect it's the gun. The long cylinder and frequently oversized barrel aren't really conducive to consistency or accuracy. Maybe try the same chamber 5 times and seeing what the spread is? I've used smaller charges and had about 50 fps spread high/low. You can also test for position sensitivity by tilting the barrel up between each shot, insuring the powder is back against the primer.


    *edit, sorry, misread my notes. I thought I'd chrono'd CFE through the Redhawk, but that was using Titegroup. The CFE loads were .45 ACP.

    CFE is position sensitive if it leaves a lot of case volume, as an example it works great in .38 wadcutters but lousy in round nose.

    For reference, here's the results for .45 Colt, 6.6 gr Titegroup, 230 gr plated and CCI primer:

    805.3
    769.9
    787.8
    787.9
    733.4

    Winchester primer:

    761.7
    813.8
    838.3
    799.9
    789.6


    Thanks for the pointers. I was aware of the oversized bore/cylinder issues with these guns so I ordered .454 cast instead of the standard .452 to try and help with that. I still need to do some experimentation with the cylinders as I noted in the Gunsmithing thread as it related to my grouping. That is where I will head next is to look at specific cylinders for velocity and accuracy to see if I can find a usable pattern. Even if I find one cylinder that shoots like a rock star it will make both parties happy. She gets to use the gun she loves and I can hand her something that I KNOW at least the first shot will go RIGHT where it was designed to go. Not real concerned about the second shot just need to get the first one to the same point every time.
     

    Mgderf

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    Instead of "carding" the rounds, I've heard of old-timers filling the rest of the case with corn meal. The idea being it would keep the powder in place in front of the primer.
    Reducing the empty space in the case seems to me to be a good way to raise case pressure.

    Did they only do that with black powder, or only low-pressure rounds?
     

    Leadeye

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    I'm with BBI on this one, shoot a lot of 45 Colt through Rugers, Colts, and rifles with 8 grains of Unique and a 250 grain cast bullet. Get very good accuracy in all.
     

    oldpink

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    As you already know, that Circuit Judge inherent design doesn't lend itself very well to accuracy, and probably not conducive to velocity consistency.
    That charge looks rather small, so as others have already mentioned, you won't be filling up your cases much, which further aggravates the velocity issue.
    The aforementioned high volume Trail Boss is a viable option to allow light charges to more completely fill your cases.
    Another option is to step up your charge weight to near max of what that Circuit Judge can handle, again to more completely fill the case.
    However, I'm uncertain about how much that particular carbine can handle compared to the stronger .45 Colt guns that have dedicated load data in them manuals, namely the Ruger Blackhawk, Winchester 1892, Freedom Arms, and Marlin 1894.
    I will say that I use a max charge of H110 for my deer load in my Marlin 1894, and I get good accuracy and velocity consistency with that.
     

    bstewrat3

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    Instead of "carding" the rounds, I've heard of old-timers filling the rest of the case with corn meal. The idea being it would keep the powder in place in front of the primer.
    Reducing the empty space in the case seems to me to be a good way to raise case pressure.

    Did they only do that with black powder, or only low-pressure rounds?

    Do not top off the case with anything that takes up significant volume! You will increase your pressures to catastrophic levels. The process you may be thinking of is case forming with cream of wheat or similar which is used as a bullet replacement when blowing out improved cases.
     

    bobjones223

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    Instead of "carding" the rounds, I've heard of old-timers filling the rest of the case with corn meal. The idea being it would keep the powder in place in front of the primer.
    Reducing the empty space in the case seems to me to be a good way to raise case pressure.

    Did they only do that with black powder, or only low-pressure rounds?


    Yes I have read the same thing about using a filler. One site recommended dry grits. Said it also removed any leading that may collect but I am with you about pressures. I am already looking to ask a lot out of this round hate to push it over the edge.

    I had a really hard time this morning.....Kentucky Gun Works has a "blemish" sale going on for Taurus/Rossi and they had a 24" Oct. barrel 45 Colt for $400.00 new. These also handle the Ruger +p loads so you can push them to 1,500fps.....Still chewing on it?
     

    oldpink

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    Yes I have read the same thing about using a filler. One site recommended dry grits. Said it also removed any leading that may collect but I am with you about pressures. I am already looking to ask a lot out of this round hate to push it over the edge.

    I had a really hard time this morning.....Kentucky Gun Works has a "blemish" sale going on for Taurus/Rossi and they had a 24" Oct. barrel 45 Colt for $400.00 new. These also handle the Ruger +p loads so you can push them to 1,500fps.....Still chewing on it?

    If that octagon barrel Rossi is their Winchester 1892 clone, that sounds like a very tempting deal.
    The only real beef with them that I hear is about the weird safety mechanism built into the hammer, but they have probably the strongest rifle action for that round, which (as you already mentioned) would make them a great candidate for exploring the very impressive levels to which you can go with .45 Colt.
     

    Mgderf

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    If that octagon barrel Rossi is their Winchester 1892 clone, that sounds like a very tempting deal.
    The only real beef with them that I hear is about the weird safety mechanism built into the hammer, but they have probably the strongest rifle action for that round, which (as you already mentioned) would make them a great candidate for exploring the very impressive levels to which you can go with .45 Colt.

    I have a Rossi M92 in .454Casull.
    I use mainly VERY hot .45Colt loads in it, and it is extremely accurate, and comfortable to shoot.
     

    bobjones223

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    :thumbsup:
    You're welcome, and I promise, you won't be sorry.

    Ohhhhh I don't know about that. When baby girl goes "Dad i like my other one better." and the wife goes "What the hell did you get that for? She doesn't even like it." and I am stuck explaining the benefits of it over the other to two people that don't understand what I am talking about only that the old one "Looks prettier" than the new one.

    Good thing I just got a fresh bottle for the liquor cabinet and another box of primers....daddy going to be living in the man cave for a bit.

    On a side note...do you think she would notice if every year we upped the powder a grain at a time? "Dad....I don't remember it kicking like this last year?"..."Oh it is the same as last year you just forgot.":dunno:
     

    oldpink

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    Ohhhhh I don't know about that. When baby girl goes "Dad i like my other one better." and the wife goes "What the hell did you get that for? She doesn't even like it." and I am stuck explaining the benefits of it over the other to two people that don't understand what I am talking about only that the old one "Looks prettier" than the new one.

    Good thing I just got a fresh bottle for the liquor cabinet and another box of primers....daddy going to be living in the man cave for a bit.

    On a side note...do you think she would notice if every year we upped the powder a grain at a time? "Dad....I don't remember it kicking like this last year?"..."Oh it is the same as last year you just forgot.":dunno:

    heh
    My Marlin .45 Colt with stout deer loads doesn't recoil enough to hurt, but it's definitely about as much as a 20 gauge shotgun with field loads.
     
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