.45 ACP crimp question

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  • t-squared

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    After manually ejecting an unfired round from my chamber, I found that there was a bit of bullet setback. I unchambered a few more from different 8 shot strings and found the same thing.
    I know you can get some setback if you rechamber a round a bunch of times, like when you rechamber a SD round after a range trip using target loads. Trouble is, this was just one chambering of a reload.

    The gun: SR1911
    The load: Xtreme 230gr RN plated
    5 grains HP-38
    CCI spp
    oal 1.25
    Blazer brass case- spp.....don't hate- I've got a bunch of these!!!

    I pulled a few of my loads and they all "released" with a couple easy-ish thumps on the floor...not nearly as hard as the couple of different factory loads I pulled for comparison. None of my reloads I pulled had any damage to the bullets...no scraping of the plating or any measurable deformation.

    Sooo, I'm thinking I need to increase the crimp.

    My question is do I want to increase it with the seat/crimp die or dial in more with the factory crimp die?

    As they sit now, the dies are adjusted according to Lee's recommendations..1/2 turn in past contact on the seat/crimp die and 1/2 turn past contact on the factory crimp die.
     

    1911ly

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    Personally, I prefer the factory crimp die. If you are getting set back, yep, crimp them a bit harder. You should he able to tap the tip of the bullet firmly on the bench and the lenght should not change.
     

    Ngdonut

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    Yeah finding the right amount of crimp for plated bullets can take a little tweaking. I originally was crimping my .45 ACP's too much because i was being overly cautious about bullet setback. It showed up down range though with groups opening up quite a bit. Continue using the Lee Factory Crimp die and just turn it a little more than you currently are, but not too much. Follow Lee's directions on setting up the die. Seemed to work better for me.
     
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    Disposable Heart

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    First thing's first: Don't crimp and seat simultaneously. Lots of guys will argue me on this, that's fine. I've seen many of my .45s and other calibers suffer from accuracy issues, shaved bullets, etc... trying to fight the seating die's crimp. Use the crimp die, it's what it's there for.

    I am assuming that you have the Lee 4 die set if you're talking about a factory crimp die. Seat with the seating die, use the factory crimp die to take out the bell and crimp.

    I crimp until the case mouth is .471" (I MAY go to .472" if plated or lead if I get leading or tumbling), rather than following the Lee directions. This is why it's important to sort your cases by head stamp: So you get consistent case volume (consistent case capacity for accuracy, especially in 9mm) and mouth thickness (for crimping consistency).

    I did exactly what you did, crimp using seating then use the factory crimp and got set back issues as well, like the factory crimp would undue what the seating die did, but not crimp correctly.

    Also, if you are using a 1911 and the round is thumping the feedramp, barrel ramp, etc... as part of it's controlled feed, experiment with the OAL to get a round that feeds reliably and doesn't shrink with a single chambering.
     

    ROLEXrifleman

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    Don't over think this. Use a set of calipers and measure the crimp of the factory round. Duplicate on your press and start from there. 1911 Headspaces on the rim case so I highly doubt the factory round is gonna be over crimped, it will provide a good baseline.
     

    t-squared

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    Thanks guys. My wife made her world famous chili for dinner tonight, and I can't seem to resist washing it down with a cold Sam Adams Boston Lager or three, so I'll head downstairs tomorrow night and fart around with getting the crimp right.
     

    hps

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    Sounds like ur flaring ur cases to much. 45 doesnt need much of a crimp. This will fix ur problem
     

    jstory

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    Like others, I seat and crimp in different steps. It does require a little more time, but its worth it. I'm sure oldpink will be along soon with his opinion. And like many others here, I have grown to respect what he has to say...
     

    possumpacker

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    i started using a taper crimp die years ago and crimp problems went away. brass lengths vary to much. i would pick up range brass all different.even once fired factory brass will vary from one to the other. short case= not enough, long case= to much crimp. ive used it on 45 40 38 357 for years.
     

    Drail

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    On a semi auto cartridge the crimp is only applied to remove the flare. That's all it does. The crimp has nothing whatsoever to do with holding the bullet in place. Case neck tension holds it in place. If a bullet is seated into a sized and expanded case you should be able to push the round against the edge of the bench as hard as you can and the bullet must not move any at all. This is with no crimp applied yet. The reasons for insufficient case neck tension are case not fully sized down or the case was overexpanded. Trying to fix this problem with increased or different type of crimp is a waste of time. Trust me on this. Every expander die I have ever bought has had an oversized button that needed to be turned down to the correct dia. They all had over sized buttons in them. Ammo factories don't check or even worry about this. This is why a handloader will usually load much better ammo than the factories sell. A bunch of old guys figured this stuff out a hundred years ago. On a revolver case you can apply a heavy crimp but only if the bullet has a deep crimping groove ( a cannelure). Semi auto rounds headspace on the mouth of the case so you cannot crimp it down. If you get suufficient neck tension you don't even need a crimp if the cartridge will chamber easily. As far as set back goes do not repeatedly chamber a factory round over and over. Most of them will set back and very bad things can happen with some cailbers in some guns if the pressure shoots up. If you absolutely MUST unload and reload repeatedly every day seriously consider getting a revolver. Rechambering over and over factory ammo is a very bad thing.
     
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    Drail

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    If you hold a properly constructed round under a good light you can actually see the base of the bullet very slightly bulging the case. If you don't see that - expect the bullet to pull or set back. You must have a good tight fit between the bullet and the case to keep the bullet from moving.
     

    Fullmag

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    My problem is the slide fails to return to battery. So started using a Wilson case gauge to get a higher pass rate in doing so had to increase the crimp. Now it's makes very visible line for the crimp.

    To add to the equation ran low on 200 gr LSWC and going to 200 gr FPRN. The semi-wad cutters were quite accurate but not reliable to feed. (OAL 1.220 to 1.225) Sometimes the case mouth would be damaged while failing to feed, thinking it was not enough crimp to travel past feed ramp.
     

    possumpacker

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    the reason its not going into battery and damaging case mouth feeding is because your not removing the flair from the mouth. run your finger down the side of your round and feel the flair then run the round through a taper crimp die and do the same thing. youll see what i mean. your problem is an easy fix
     

    oldpink

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    If you hold a properly constructed round under a good light you can actually see the base of the bullet very slightly bulging the case. If you don't see that - expect the bullet to pull or set back. You must have a good tight fit between the bullet and the case to keep the bullet from moving.

    Yep
    If you don't see that slight bulge from the bullet in a straight-walled case, you'll have insufficient bullet pull, which can cause inconsistent muzzle velocities and probably will let the bullets slip under recoil or even with just routine handling of the ammo, as when loading the magazine.


    the reason its not going into battery and damaging case mouth feeding is because your not removing the flair from the mouth. run your finger down the side of your round and feel the flair then run the round through a taper crimp die and do the same thing. youll see what i mean. your problem is an easy fix

    Right on.
    Crimp serves only a secondary purpose with holding the bullet in place -- with normal case mouth tension being the primary bullet retension -- but its primary purpose is to facilitate smooth feeding.
    This is one area where the Lee Factory Crimp die shines, certainly one of their best products, although I gather that their collet die for bottleneck cartridges is also an outstanding product.
     

    Fullmag

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    Thats my line thinking also, was curious to see what you guys thought. Was going to try that next, lowering crimp die. Have made 100 rds to test for accuracy. Can't get good weather to test out. Almost got stuck out there trying to get back to the range today!
     

    Fullmag

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    Memory is starting to go. Remembered this later the other day and forgot to post!

    Another problem I have is quite often is I seem to get the bullet seated crooked before the seat die and the case bulges to one side. Tried to increase flare but any more than .020 to .025 more than the case dia. is too much. Any suggestions?
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    Memory is starting to go. Remembered this later the other day and forgot to post!

    Another problem I have is quite often is I seem to get the bullet seated crooked before the seat die and the case bulges to one side. Tried to increase flare but any more than .020 to .025 more than the case dia. is too much. Any suggestions?

    For crooked bullets, pull your seater stem out of your seater die and see if it matches the profile of the bullet you are using and make sure its clean with no buldup of lube or bullet material if its not the right one call the die manufacturer and they will have a process to get you the right stem.
    And like Possum stated above, get yourself a Taper Crimp Die. Thats what this die is used for. To take care of the flair in autoloaders. Lots of your problems with with feeding will go away with using one.
     

    oldpink

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    For crooked bullets, pull your seater stem out of your seater die and see if it matches the profile of the bullet you are using and make sure its clean with no buldup of lube or bullet material if its not the right one call the die manufacturer and they will have a process to get you the right stem.
    And like Possum stated above, get yourself a Taper Crimp Die. Thats what this die is used for. To take care of the flair in autoloaders. Lots of your problems with with feeding will go away with using one.

    Spot on about the seater plug profile.
    I should know better and just the other day I caught myself trying to seat lead semi-wadcuters with the roundnose profile plug, which made the bullets seat more or less straight, but there was an interesting little indentation around the nose of the bullet.
    Yeah, rookie mistake.
     

    Fullmag

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    Finally got out there to run some rounds! The other day, the day cars were sliding off of I-65 on black ice, tried to get to the range. Just couldnt get up that hill to conservation club! Lol.

    So run 200 gr MBC lead round nose flat points (XD gold) with good results. Accurate and reliable. Re-crimped a few LSWC that would not pass the gage originally they ran good also. Really like the 200 gr rounds from MBC. Now to make up some more and try'em out on paper after Christmas.
     
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