New Reloader Here; I got a squib with a load from the manual?

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  • BlueEagle

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    Hello all. Been a long time since I posted on the forums here, but I just recently picked up some reloading equipment and started learning how to reload. When I ran into an issue this morning, figured here would be a good place to get some advice.

    I bought a Lee Classic Turret Press kit, came with auto powder drum, scale, safety prime, Modern Reloading 2nd Ed, etc. The works.

    I figured I would start with some 38 special, for a couple of reasons.

    1) Straight walled case, so as far as I had read, slightly easier
    2) I have a .357, so I'm a little less likely to accidentally blow up my gun if I screw up REALLY badly

    I figured it would be a good place to start and do some learning, figuring out how it all works in relative safety. Well everything came in yesterday and the day before, and I got it all mounted to the bench and setup. I had picked up some HP38 from the local shop, after doing some research and seeing that being one of the most-mentioned brands used for reloading 38 specials. I would've preferred Unique, just based on the number of people mentioning it, but I couldn't find any locally. Also grabbed a box of Hornady XTP bullets, again they were what the shop had available, and I knew that there was a load specifically for those in 125gr weight with HP38 powder in the reloading book that came with the press.

    So after getting everything setup and installing my 38 dies, I took the time to go through and decap and size all of my cases at one time, so that I could get a feel for how that stage worked. Then I primed them all. Then I calibrated the scale that came with the kit, zeroed it out with the pan attached. I started throwing powder charges through the powder drum, and weighing them. I tuned it down to exactly the weight mentioned in the manual; 4.3 grains of HP38, for a 125gr XTP bullet. I verified and re-verified at this point. I think I spent about an hour last night just throwing charges and weighing them repeatedly, alternating with checking the zero on the scale, to make absolutely sure that I had everything configured properly.

    That was last night. Got up this morning and threw 5 or 6 charges through the powder drum and verified them, along with re-verifying the zero on the scale, and they looked good. Finally charged a case, and set a bullet in it, then crimped. Did 5 rounds total that way, one cylinder worth for my little 2" 357. I looked into each case as I charged them, and verified that I did indeed have a powder charge in them, and that it wasn't a double charge.

    Once I had all 5 done, I went outside. Gloves, shooting glasses, hearing protection, etc.

    Fired one round; recoil seemed light, but the target did have a hole in it. I opened the cylinder and checked the bore from the rear. It's a 2" barrel, so you can see all the way through it from the back. Found no obstructions.
    Fired next round. Recoil seemed more normal, another hole in the target. Opened the cylinder and checked the bore from the rear, still no obstructions.
    Third round, same as above. Normal recoil, hole in target. Checked the bore, no obstructions.
    Fourth round, VERY light recoil, and I felt a fleck of something hit my cheek. No new hole in target. Checked bore, found my projectile.

    Unloaded the 1 remaining round, as well as the empty cases. Found a few flakes of partially burnt powder in one or two of the chambers. Used a dowel and mallet to remove stuck bullet, didn't see anything unusual about it.

    I went ahead and pulled the bullet from the one remaining live round so that I wouldn't lose it and then "find" it later and fire it.

    So, I'm looking for opinions; what do you think I did wrong? I verified the powder measure was throwing the correct charge obsessively, and visually inspected each case. Was there just not enough powder in the case to get a complete burn? I did some quick reading, and most people seem to say that the manual has the "starting load" set perhaps slightly TOO low, for liability reasons, which may result in unburnt powder and low pressures. As a reminder, the load was:

    CCI small pistol primer
    4.3gr of HP38
    125gr Hornady XTP

    Thanks for all advice and opinions, look forward to seeing what everyone says. For the time being, I'm holding off on reloading anything else until I get more opinions and do more research.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    I had the same issue with CFE-Pistol in .38. The powder just doesn't take up enough volume in the brass. The cartridge becomes position sensitive. When the powder is too far away from the primer, you don't get good ignition, and you end up with a squib.

    You have options:

    For sorta-kinda-workarounds:
    1) You can try a tighter crimp, so the bullet sits there longer and gives the powder more time to burn.
    2) You can tilt the revolver barrel up and make sure the powder settles near the primer before firing.


    What I did was use the powder to load wadcutters, which take up a lot more of the brass and don't let the powder move around as much, then use another more bulkier powder for semi-wadcutters.
     

    OHOIAN

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    You seem to have covered all the bases, except did you verify your scale? A check weight set is the best tool for that. However, for a rough check, a shiny dime should weigh about 34.9g.
    Your load is light, but not so light that it should cause the problem. My data shows 3.9g Starting load and 5.5g Max +P load. A charge increase may still solve the problem. Ball powders can be a little though to get burning but I have never run across that with HP 38. Also consider, that a good heavy crimp may help.
     

    Mgderf

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    It is always possible you got one light primer.
    My guess is BBI's suggestion that your experiencing issues involving the position of powder in the case.

    I'm not familiar with H38. I'm a new loader myself, but your problems sound like a classic case of the powder being too far from the primer for proper ignition.

    Be sure to come back and let us know what you get figured out.
     

    SEIndSAM

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    Are you sure that your crimp is tight enough? I wonder if the crimp was too light and the projectile was backed out of the mouth of the casing by the recoil of the first 4 shots? I had that happen to me on some factory 158gr cartridges.
     

    billybob44

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    Firm Roll Crimp on Revolver loads with jacketed bullets..

    I'm really new to this; how can I tell how tight my crimp is? Or is it just a trial and error thing?

    On the XTP bullets you can put a FIRM Roll crimp right on the cannalure.

    You should see the visible taper into the bullet.

    Adjust your crimp die a little at a time until you can see a slight taper into the cannalure of the XTP bullet..Bill.
     

    ghitch75

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    are sure there was powder in it?........how far did the bullet travel down the barrel......i had a Lee turret to and had trouble with it dropping powder right.....had a bunch of squibs.....

    4.2gr of HP38 would be around 850fps so there is plenty of powder......

    got a Dillon 650 and no more squibs....
     

    BlueEagle

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    Yeah, I visually checked each of the 5 cases I loaded while I was working on them, they all had powder. Was running the press without the advancing rod, so it was single-stage. Bullet made it about halfway down the 2" barrel. Right now I'm leaning towards SEIndSam's and BBI's ideas; too much empty space in the case plus too light a crimp.

    I will run a few more and try a tighter crimp, maybe tomorrow. Thanks all for the help.
     

    ghitch75

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    i can't buy the to much empty space thing as i have a lot of old 38's and load for them for around 700fps with trailboss at 3.5gr or 3.0gr of Red Dot/Promo and have never had a squib.....
     

    Fullmag

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    Thinking along with billybob44, check your crimp. Have had some problems due insufficient crimp. It is easy to see the flare is removed and think it is crimped but there is still not enough crimp on the bullet. Getting the crimp right is a slow careful process.
     

    jzwhts

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    I quit using the Lee auto-disc powder measure because it would hang up and make a squib. I don't really know if it was light charge or no powder at all. I think your charge is plenty hot enough as I have loaded many 38's at 3.9 and they are great shooters. I only had a squib, actually 4, loading 357's. I don't trust the Lee powder measure anymore. I have no experience with the drum measure. Anyway, I really like the Lee Classic but I use an old Lyman powder measure instead. Could be you could see powder in the case but it was very light.
     

    BlueEagle

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    That is always a possibility jzwhts.

    I've got a set of "dippers" on order from Lee. Once those come in I'd like to try the same load, but by volume manually instead of using the auto feeder. That way I can be 100% sure that I loaded the right amount.
     

    87iroc

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    I've loaded several thousand rounds of 9 mm with a Lee Powder measure with few problems. I never had a problem with the lee classic when I used it. I have no experience with the drum, though...but have thought about getting one. Possible you short stroked the press and it didn't make it all the way across in that one to let the powder drop. (although I'm talking about the disk...not a drum. Could be same issue though).

    If your cases vary in length much(I have never trimmed any...but know some I load have light crimp due to shorter cases)...anyway, if they vary much in length, could be that you had one with almost no crimp on it.

    I started with 38 and then went to 357...now load 9, 45, 45 colt, and 357. Love it. Keep working at it. You'll enjoy it. There's nothing wrong with your lee. Great press to start out with.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    i can't buy the to much empty space thing as i have a lot of old 38's and load for them for around 700fps with trailboss at 3.5gr or 3.0gr of Red Dot/Promo and have never had a squib.....

    Weight and volume are different measurements. 3.5 gr of traillboss takes up nearly twice as much volume as 4.3gr of HP38. .76cc vs .40cc, give or take.

    Some powders are also more difficult to touch off than others, and more position sensitive for low volume loads.
     

    Leadeye

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    I'm with BBI on this one, the only squibs I've ever had, and over 40 years they've been rare, have been from low volume charges. It's more of a problem with old BP cartridges now using smokeless, tilting the gun is a pain but clears this up. It's one of the reasons I use a lot of 5744, it's not position sensitive in big cases like 50-95.
     

    EyeCarry

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    That is always a possibility jzwhts.

    I've got a set of "dippers" on order from Lee. Once those come in I'd like to try the same load, but by volume manually instead of using the auto feeder. That way I can be 100% sure that I loaded the right amount.
    Don't forget that you can make your own dippers from other cases and some brass rod and solder. The Lee dippers may or may not get the exact charge you want. That is when making your own comes in handy. Use another case that is smaller in diameter than the rounds you are loading so pouring is easier. Cut the length down close to your (weighed) charge volume. Then fine tune the height/volume with a file. Always "dip" the same way and check several dips with your scale before using.
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    Yeah, I visually checked each of the 5 cases I loaded while I was working on them, they all had powder. Was running the press without the advancing rod, so it was single-stage. Bullet made it about halfway down the 2" barrel. Right now I'm leaning towards SEIndSam's and BBI's ideas; too much empty space in the case plus too light a crimp.

    I will run a few more and try a tighter crimp, maybe tomorrow. Thanks all for the help.

    i can't buy the to much empty space thing as i have a lot of old 38's and load for them for around 700fps with trailboss at 3.5gr or 3.0gr of Red Dot/Promo and have never had a squib.....

    I tend to go with ghitch also on no powder. Just a primer will do just what happened to you. I would bump the load up at least .5 to .7 of a grain and shoot them again.
    I have read before that bottom end loads with hp38 powder in a 38 special can cause different velocities like you are having. But not squibs, squibs are caused by very short or non existence powder or a pluged or non drilled primer hole.
    You would have had a chamber and barrel left with unburned powder.

    Are you wet tumbling your cases? Are your cases dry inside?
     

    jstory

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    I'm with BBI on this one, the only squibs I've ever had, and over 40 years they've been rare, have been from low volume charges. It's more of a problem with old BP cartridges now using smokeless, tilting the gun is a pain but clears this up. It's one of the reasons I use a lot of 5744, it's not position sensitive in big cases like 50-95.

    Leadeye may be on to something here. Some powders are position sensitive. I use Titegroup in my 38 special because it uses such a small amount of powder in the case. My suggestion is to try a pound of Titegroup and see if you get better results. The plus side is Titegroup meters far better than HP-38.
     
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