Does .357 Sig Make Sense?

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  • TRW

    Plinker
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    Jan 10, 2017
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    So I really want to like the idea of .357 Sig. One, I'm a Sig fan (as if that really mattered). Two. I'm a 357 Magnum fan.

    The idea of semi-auto .357 load sounds amazing. Higher capacity, fast shooting, powerful load, it all sounds wonderful. My understanding is the 357 Sig was specced to be similar to .357 mag by making it 125gr at 1450 fps. This makes sense to me. Especially in the penetrating auto glass and shooting through car doors kind of application. I get why the Secret Service and State Troopers would use it. Heck, even in self-defense scenarios you can find footage where shooting through barriers was necessary. However, none of the big brand ammo manufacturers are loading their .357 Sig at that velocity. It's all 1350 fps or slower. At that point, why not just start using hot +p 9mm loads? I just don't see the advantage. Sig brand .357 Sig has slower fps loads, Federal, Hornady, pretty much everyone mainstream are all 1350 or slower.

    I realize Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc make hotter loads closer to the "original" spec, but why do all the big manufacturers under spec them in terms of velocity? Watering it down due to recoil doesn't make sense. Consumers don't buy .357 Sig to feel light as a 9mm, they'd just stick to 9mm if that was the case. And what about the US Secret Service and others who use it? Are they using Underwood?

    I don't know that any of these questions are easily answered but I am curious as to what y'all know. I need answers so I can justify buying a Legion P229 in .357 Sig someday. ;-)
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Oct 3, 2012
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    It's got two big strikes against it. It's expensive. It's unpopular. That creates a cycle that's tough to break out of.

    Ammunition remains expensive because there's less economy of scale at any level of the supply chain. That makes it tough to become popular. It feeds on itself.

    Manufacturers have little incentive to actually load for the cartridge. Raising the velocity requires a different bullet, else it opens too fast and becomes a poor performer. Dropping the velocity to near 9mm +P range lets you recycle the R&D you have in 9mm and just use the same pill...which sucks for .357 Sig as now you're getting 9mm performance with .40 capacity.

    It's an interesting concept, and had it caught on instead of .40 may have been a real player. It didn't. It's a boutique round and seems doomed to remain as such. It's also LOUD and muzzle flash can be...significant. All of that works against it as a self defense caliber. That's not to say it can't work, if you want to put the money and logistics into it...but why? There's no gain over the common duty calibers.
     

    AngryRooster

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    Apr 27, 2008
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    Outside the coup
    I had a Glock 33 years ago, picked it up about a year after it was released. I liked the gun & round. It was probably the flattest shooting round I've ever fired. It has a different recoil impulse than the 40. I ended up selling the gun to a friend's father. He still carries it.

    The ammo was always expensive and wasn't available locally for me. I remember having fits at the local wally world. They kept handing me boxes of 357 mag. I told them that wasn't what I was looking for. One employee even told me I was wrong and needed to learn about guns before I hurt myself because there was no such thing. I drove home, grabbed a box then drove right back to the store, grabbed the manager and took a walk to the gun counter for a discussion. "Huh, never heard of it. We don't carry it." :rolleyes: Told them No :poop: Sherlock, maybe you should think twice before insulting your customers. I started ordering ammo online after that. At $25 a box for practice ammo I didn't shoot it that often. I thought about trying to reload for it but at the time info was scarce and everything I read said it was a PITA. I've thought about picking up a G32 but I've got my calibers finally consolidated and don't really want to add another one.

    As far as the factory ammo issue, I think BBI nailed it. It's just not popular enough for the major companies to dedicate much to it. The minor players have the incentive since it's a limited market. I usually carried the Gold Dot in mine and practiced with Lawman. It was 1350 IIRC. I did run a few boxes of the CorBon through it. Pretty sure they were 125gr at 1450. It had quite the blast with those and I would have hated to experience that inside a home. I wore plugs & muffs on the outdoor range when I shot those. I would not shoot them indoors even wearing both.
     

    throttletony

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    Jul 11, 2011
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    Check out the Dillon 9x25... that's some untapped potential.
    It the same idea as a 357sig, but based on a 10mm parent case. That would get you to real (though mellow) 357 mag territory.
     

    wtburnette

    WT(aF)
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    Nov 11, 2013
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    I bought a CPO P229 in .40 and picked up a .357 Sig barrel for it to try it out. I love shooting .357 Sig, big smile on my face every time I hit the range with it. The most economical choice would be to pick up a Legion in .40 and pick up a .357 Sig barrel for it. If you don't like it, you're only out ~$150 for the barrel and whatever ammo you buy. The P229 is also enjoyable to shoot in .40, so it's all good :yesway:
     

    joncon

    Sharpshooter
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    Mar 30, 2013
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    Bartholomew County
    I bought a Glock 32 when they first came out,still have it. Also bought 357sig barrels for my M&P 40c and Glock 22. I like the caliber, and that you can shoot 357sig or 40 cal just by changing barrels. Ammo is more expensive and harder to find though. Most of mine is bought on line.
     

    NyleRN

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    Dec 14, 2013
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    It's got two big strikes against it. It's expensive. It's unpopular. That creates a cycle that's tough to break out of.

    Ammunition remains expensive because there's less economy of scale at any level of the supply chain. That makes it tough to become popular. It feeds on itself.

    Manufacturers have little incentive to actually load for the cartridge. Raising the velocity requires a different bullet, else it opens too fast and becomes a poor performer. Dropping the velocity to near 9mm +P range lets you recycle the R&D you have in 9mm and just use the same pill...which sucks for .357 Sig as now you're getting 9mm performance with .40 capacity.

    It's an interesting concept, and had it caught on instead of .40 may have been a real player. It didn't. It's a boutique round and seems doomed to remain as such. It's also LOUD and muzzle flash can be...significant. All of that works against it as a self defense caliber. That's not to say it can't work, if you want to put the money and logistics into it...but why? There's no gain over the common duty calibers.

    Not to add a caliber war, but handguns in duty calibers suck in general for killing people. The answer is not to try and get cartridge X to perform like cartridge Y. It's simply picking a good duty caliber and practicing till you're proficient in putting those rounds where they need to go.
     

    BugI02

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    Jul 4, 2013
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    TRW do you have a nearby Cabela's? I watch for sales there for practice (FMJ) ammo and usually get it for $20.99 for 50, usually either Sig Elite or PPU. Thats about the best deal I've found w/o ordering off the internet

    I have a short-overhang P229 and have used Gold Dots in it. For self defense not only is it loud but the muzzle flash is pretty intense. I wouldn't want to use it in a situation where retaining night vision was critical
     

    RMC

    Sharpshooter
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    Sep 7, 2012
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    McCordsville
    If you reload then the 357 Sig isn't very costly to shoot. I think you can by once-fired brass for a reasonable price online and the projectiles are comparable to 9mm. I had a Glock 35 that I put a 357 klm barrel in and the accuracy was very impressive, especially with max loads. The 40 caliber magazines worked just fine too. I traded my Glock for a 1911 Kimber but I do miss it. I will probably get another 40 cal and get a barrel to shoot 357 Sig.
     

    NIFT

    Master
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    Jul 3, 2009
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    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    The .357 Sig is a great round. Here are all the advantages:
    1. .357 Sig ammunition is much more scarce than 9mm or even .40 S&W.
    2. If you can find .357 ammunition, it will be more expensive than either the 9mm or .40.
    3. .357 Sig ammunition offerings are limited as to FMJ, HP, bullet weights and terminal performance.
    4. Speaking of terminal performance, the best .357 Sig. ammo is capable of performing up to the level of good 9mm ammo.
    5. The Speer Gold Dot .357 Sig. in 125 gr. HP (the only bullet available for the .357 Sig.) is about the best in terminal performance, and it is only $10.00 more per box than the same Gold Dot for 9mm.
    6. The .357 Sig. bullet diameter is .355" vs. the 9mm, which is .355." That is one of the great advantages!
    7. The .357 Sig is a .40 S&W necked down to 9mm.
    8. Because the .357 Sig has a bigger case than the 9mm, magazine capacity is reduced vs. the 9mm.
    9. The .357 Sig has more muzzle blast, muzzle flash, and recoil than the 9mm.
    10. Because the .357 Sig is, simply, a high pressure/high velocity 9mm, it wears a gun out faster.

    Okay, lets recap:
    The .357 Sig is a 9mm in a .40 S&W case.
    .357 Sig ammo is more expensive and much less plentiful than 9mm.
    Magazine capacity is less (about two rounds) compared to the same size 9mm magazine.
    It is harder to shoot than the 9mm. (muzzle blast, muzzle flash, and recoil.)
    Terminal performance of the .357 Sig. is capable of equaling but not exceeding that of more plentiful 9mm offerings.
    .357 Sig is more punishing to the gun than 9mm., meaning shorter barrel life and faster wear and tear on the whole gun.

    Now, let's consider the advantages of the .357 Sig compared to the 9mm:
    1.
    2.
    3.
    4.
    .
    .
    .

    Wow, with all those advantages vs. the 9mm, the .357 Sig is the way to go!
     

    throttletony

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    Jul 11, 2011
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    The .357 Sig is a great round. Here are all the advantages:
    1. .357 Sig ammunition is much more scarce than 9mm or even .40 S&W.
    2. If you can find .357 ammunition, it will be more expensive than either the 9mm or .40.
    3. .357 Sig ammunition offerings are limited as to FMJ, HP, bullet weights and terminal performance.
    4. Speaking of terminal performance, the best .357 Sig. ammo is capable of performing up to the level of good 9mm ammo.
    5. The Speer Gold Dot .357 Sig. in 125 gr. HP (the only bullet available for the .357 Sig.) is about the best in terminal performance, and it is only $10.00 more per box than the same Gold Dot for 9mm.
    6. The .357 Sig. bullet diameter is .355" vs. the 9mm, which is .355." That is one of the great advantages!
    7. The .357 Sig is a .40 S&W necked down to 9mm.
    8. Because the .357 Sig has a bigger case than the 9mm, magazine capacity is reduced vs. the 9mm.
    9. The .357 Sig has more muzzle blast, muzzle flash, and recoil than the 9mm.
    10. Because the .357 Sig is, simply, a high pressure/high velocity 9mm, it wears a gun out faster.

    Okay, lets recap:
    The .357 Sig is a 9mm in a .40 S&W case.
    .357 Sig ammo is more expensive and much less plentiful than 9mm.
    Magazine capacity is less (about two rounds) compared to the same size 9mm magazine.
    It is harder to shoot than the 9mm. (muzzle blast, muzzle flash, and recoil.)
    Terminal performance of the .357 Sig. is capable of equaling but not exceeding that of more plentiful 9mm offerings.
    .357 Sig is more punishing to the gun than 9mm., meaning shorter barrel life and faster wear and tear on the whole gun.

    Now, let's consider the advantages of the .357 Sig compared to the 9mm:
    1.
    2.
    3.
    4.
    .
    .
    .

    Wow, with all those advantages vs. the 9mm, the .357 Sig is the way to go!

    I see what u did there. :)
    As I said earlier, the 9x25 Dillon is what the 357sig should have been. (10mm auto case necked down to 9mm)
     

    Hohn

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    Jul 5, 2012
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    Check out the Dillon 9x25... that's some untapped potential.
    It the same idea as a 357sig, but based on a 10mm parent case. That would get you to real (though mellow) 357 mag territory.

    9x25 can push 125gr pills to 1700+ fps. That's hardly "mellow" .357 territory.

    I consider that to be a rather toasty .357 if 6" bbl or less.
     

    Hohn

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    Jul 5, 2012
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    Oddball caliber makes finding ammo in a pinch difficult. If it's just a range toy, go for it

    I would argue that the truth is exactly the opposite of that.

    Recent experience taught us that when ammo scarces hit, what goes first are the common calibers: 22LR, 9mm, .45. When things were bad as recently as 2 years ago, you WISH you had a .357 sig or some other "oddball" as that was the only thing on the shelf.
     

    Hohn

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    If I could afford to shoot .357 Sig, i would. I love the idea of the round. The reality, however? That's a little different.

    As BBI indicated, the watering down allows then to recycle 9mm projectiles. Note that the 125gr .357 Sig gold dot is very different in design than the 124gr 9mm version, with a very shallow cavity to accommodate the higher speed.

    This is likely why to many 10mm loads are pud loaded-- they can recycle .40SW projectile and not have to worry about optimizing the extra 300 fps. It's one of the reason I gave up 10mm-- no optimized projectiles. Simply loading 40sw as a +P+ doesn't give you anything much but recoil.

    So a couple general comments about the common .357 Sig load:

    -- it is one of the most inherently accurate pistol loads available. Very low ES and excellent accuracy are widely reported.
    -- Bottleneck design must improve feed reliability
    -- Wear and tear on gun is moot-- no worse than a .40SW. A .40SW shooting 155gr at 1200 fps has a power factor of 186. A .357 sig pushing 125 gr at 1400fps has a PF of 175. Only the barrel sees "pressure." The rest of the gun sees PF. The "high pressure" thing is gun lore that needs to die. (the worst case is when .45ers bad mouth the "high pressure" 40SW (which is SAAMI 35,000 psi) but see no problem with a +P 9mm which is 37000psi or hotter).

    The ding in ammo capacity is the same as going from 9 to 40. It a factor, but I can't see how it's much of a factor compared to the shooter's skill and clear-headedness.


    For me, the best realization of the .357 sig concept would be in a 9x25 G40 coversion. 15+1 of 1700fps pills is a LOT of firepower. And with the long barrel, you can get some really astounding speed from the 9x25.

    Obviously, a G40 isn't much of a carry gun, even for a LEO. It's huge and clunky and certainly slow to the fight.
     

    edporch

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    I dismissed the .357 Sig round for many years.
    Then I began to read about it and the more I read the more it got me interested in trying it.

    I have a S&W M&P 40 police trade-in.
    So I bought a S&W OEM .357 Sig barrel for it, and as soon as I fired it I loved it.

    I use Underwood ammo for carry and am impressed with it.

    I bought a Sig P229 in .357 Sig for my carry gun and I REALLY like how it shoots.
    I can shoot it better than the Sig P226 9mm I have.
     

    oldpink

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    Yes, it's more expensive and harder to find, but it's really cool having a caliber that closely approximates the vaunted .357 Magnum in an autopistol platform.
    Go on all you want about split times, but I think that terminal performance for each hit should count for something.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Yes, it's more expensive and harder to find, but it's really cool having a caliber that closely approximates the vaunted .357 Magnum in an autopistol platform.
    Go on all you want about split times, but I think that terminal performance for each hit should count for something.
    .

    Terminal performance does count, which is why you shouldn't be carrying a .22 short. That does, however, bring up the question of what the difference in terminal ballistics among common duty calibers is. Everything I've seen on the street and the results of labs that matter suggest whatever differences there are end up being quite miniscule and situation dependent.

    I also feel compelled to point out that it replicates one mid-weight .357 magnum load, not the heavier loads. Even the "vaunted" 357 magnums still require you to put the bullet in the right gibbly bits. I had a fellow shot with a .357 magnum through the chest, front to back. The bullet continued and went through a metal security door, through a wooden front door, through dry wall, and then lodged in a door header. I'm not sure what that translates into in gel penetration, but it didn't do anything but make that fellow run a block and call police, then walk to the ambulance. Same with a Critical Defense 125gr shot into the back of someone already running. Nice starfish pattern in his clothes on the exit, it expanded out like it was supposed to, and kept on trucking. It hit high in torso near the scapula and the guy kept running and was talking with no issues in the ER.

    The one advantage that the .357 might have is in psychological stops. As I've said before, I suspect the louder bang and bigger muzzle flash may add to the perceived threat and cause the other person more flinch and require more morale to stay in the fight. Maybe.

    Cool factor aside, there's still no compelling proof that terminal ballistics of the .357 Sig exceed the common duty rounds. While its a quite viable choice, assuming proper bullet selection, it's probably best viewed as one among peers, not a leader of the pack. The differences are marginal and what matters in gunfight A may not in gunfight B.
     
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