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  1. #31
    Master Dryden's Avatar
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    Mafia Hit-Men have used the .22 LR for a long time. Two behind the ear.

    Just remember to take the canoles.

  2. #32
    Plinker
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    For what it's worth . . .
    • All common defensive handgun rounds are puny. Their only genuine utility is that handguns are easily portable and concealable.
    • Shot placement is very important, but it's not even close to being any kind of a guarantee.
    • The only "guaranteed" stop is destroying the medulla oblongata (brain stem), which is a difficult target for a variety of reasons. Shots to other parts of the brain/spinal column are unpredictable with handgun projectiles, and that assumes that your bullet(s) manage to pentrate the skull.
    • No one knows how many rounds it will take to eliminate a given threat, regardless of the caliber and the concept of a "one shot stop" with any handheld weapon is a myth. There are too many variables even if the marksmanships is excellent and the terminal ballistics of the projectiles are as advertised. That's why you have to keep servicing the threat until it's not a threat anymore.
    With that in mind, here are some additional bits of information courtesy of some time I spent with John Farnam:
    • 97% of the people who are shot in in America survive. That includes suicide attempts. Handguns are puny.
    • The most common reaction observed when people are shot is that they run away. That's an excellent outcome for the defender, and if that happens, the rest is moot.
    • Incapacitation due to blood loss isn't going to happen instantaneously, regardless of how many holes you put in the threat. I don't recall the quoted figure, but you're looking at a minimum of 20-30 seconds for someone to bleed enough to be incapacitated.
    Joseph Viray (aka rhino)
    Joseph@AdaptiveConsultingandTraining.com
    To prevail, you must ACT!



    Wabash Valley Practical Pistol Shooters www.wvpps.com
    Riley Conservation Club www.rileycc.com

  3. #33
    Sharpshooter
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyGunworks View Post
    a 45 is only a substitute for a man who lacks confidence in being able to put the bullet where it needs to go
    Actually, the man with the 45 has MORE confidence as he usually carries a weapon with lower magazine capacity versus the 9mm guy who knows it may take ALL those rounds to stop his attacker no matter WHERE he puts them

    Bob

  4. #34
    Plinker Professor Thump's Avatar
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    What if a guy is carrying a 9 mm and thinks that it would be good to carry a .45 also? Does he really have a confidence problem, is he a bad shot or do his pants just fall down without a better belt?

    Insert obvious LOL

  5. #35
    Expert Dr Falken's Avatar
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    As to the animal kingdom I'm amazed as to what caliber and shoot placement can do. Like the deer I shot with a 12 guage slug that walked off 50 yards before expiring. Claiming the deer showed that it's front leg hung free, the shoulder broken and further examination showed the slug had gone thru the heart...while deer aren't humans and animals show a greater tenacity to life then we do (it seems)...caliber and shot placement seems to come down to a greater or lesser percentage of ability to stop a target. And of course no mention is made of the type of bullet being shot.
    thesurvivalpodcast

  6. #36
    Expert kingnereli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACT II View Post
    For what it's worth . . .
    • All common defensive handgun rounds are puny. Their only genuine utility is that handguns are easily portable and concealable.
    • Shot placement is very important, but it's not even close to being any kind of a guarantee.
    • The only "guaranteed" stop is destroying the medulla oblongata (brain stem), which is a difficult target for a variety of reasons. Shots to other parts of the brain/spinal column are unpredictable with handgun projectiles, and that assumes that your bullet(s) manage to pentrate the skull.
    • No one knows how many rounds it will take to eliminate a given threat, regardless of the caliber and the concept of a "one shot stop" with any handheld weapon is a myth. There are too many variables even if the marksmanships is excellent and the terminal ballistics of the projectiles are as advertised. That's why you have to keep servicing the threat until it's not a threat anymore.
    With that in mind, here are some additional bits of information courtesy of some time I spent with John Farnam:
    • 97% of the people who are shot in in America survive. That includes suicide attempts. Handguns are puny.
    • The most common reaction observed when people are shot is that they run away. That's an excellent outcome for the defender, and if that happens, the rest is moot.
    • Incapacitation due to blood loss isn't going to happen instantaneously, regardless of how many holes you put in the threat. I don't recall the quoted figure, but you're looking at a minimum of 20-30 seconds for someone to bleed enough to be incapacitated.
    Joseph Viray (aka rhino)
    Joseph@AdaptiveConsultingandTraining.com
    Very true. However, it is the very fact that handgun calibers are so puny that makes the choice so important. If I'm going to carry a puny caliber all day it had better be the best puny caliber I can find. IMO, YMMV and all that, but sufficient penetration and as big a whole as possible is what I'm after.

  7. #37
    Plinker
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    Jul 2012
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    I can't believe you wasted a perfectly good watermelon.

  8. #38
    Expert Grelber's Avatar
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    This thread should be titled "what one particular navy seal happens to think".

    Chris Kyle (Navy Seal, 4 tours, 150 + officially reported kills some room to room and some long range) carried a 45 by choice.
    By the way, his book "American Sniper" is a good read in my opinion.
    In a real gun fight, there would be cookies.

  9. #39
    Shooter
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    If I was breaking into someones house to rape their wimmins and steal their bacon....

    and I somehow knew I was going to take 2 shots to the chest from their gun....

    I would prefer the holes in my chest to be of the 9mm size.

  10. #40
    Expert NIFT's Avatar
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    When all factors are considered, along with all the "yes, buts" "howevers," "on the other hands", there isn't any material difference among the 9, the .40, and the .45 when using ammunition that passes the FBI protocols for terminal performance.


    One important factor to consider:
    1. Caliber and ammunition are technical issues, while
    2. Shot placement is a training issue.
    Those two factors are independent--one is not controlled or impacted by the other. However, almost without fail, any discussion of caliber/ammunition introduces shot placement, but caliber/ammuniiton is not a function of training and vice versa.
    Robert E. Aldridge, NRA Certified Instructor, website: iftnra.com

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