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  • indyjohn

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    Good evening INGO,

    Do Auto Dealership Service Departments (Chevy in this case) have access to brand-specific diagnostic tools that Independent Service/Repair shops do not? I'm talking about tools beyond the ODB-II code scanners; I'm asking about computer or electronic-based equipment that are programmed for a GMC/Cadillac/Chevrolet ECM and subordinate systems.

    My Suburban has an issue that my Small Business Independent Service Shop has not been able to determine its root cause. For a substantial period of time, I have been taking the approach of more time - less money or 'it may take them longer to fix but I will spend significantly less than if I took it to the dealership'. They have done good, reasonably priced, reasonable turnaround work for me over the course of about a year & a half.

    Brought it home this week with a "I think we got it" statement. This morning that proved to be not true. I'm growing somewhat weary of this cycle and I am concerned so is the mechanic. But, If Chevy can't bring any better tools to the table, I'm reluctant to hand over my truck and a blank check.

    What say you, INGO?
     

    mlewis

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    The dealership will have a GM-Specific scan tool that will most likely be able to access more data and parameters that a generic "universal" (for lack of a better term) scan tool can do. What is the issue you are having?
     

    bocefus78

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    My avalanche (suburban in disguise) had an ecm issue and my mechanic who has about every tool and scanner known to mankind had to pay GM for the software permission to flash the ecm.

    Iirc, the software charge, for a 1 time use, was $150ish. He did the work with his snap on scanner. No special GM tool. He said it took 2 tries, and GM made him pay both times.

    Hth.
     

    hog slayer

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    I worked as a service manager for a similar dealership so I may be off a bit in regards to Chevy. I would look at two possibilities. If your problem is a consistent issue (meaning that when the mechanic has his hands in the machine he can get the failure to occur) and the small time shop cannot fix it, it's time to go to a dealership. If the complaint is not persistent then it likely wouldn't make a lot of difference if you paid Chevy or your buddy. I would compare hourly rates and attempt to figure out how to get the problem to be consistent OR fail on "command."
     

    indyjohn

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    The dealership will have a GM-Specific scan tool that will most likely be able to access more data and parameters that a generic "universal" (for lack of a better term) scan tool can do. What is the issue you are having?

    Starts and runs normal when above freezing. Below freezing turn key to ON everything lights up like normal, turn key further to start - doesn't crank. Starter, Alternator, Battery & associated resistor have been replaced.

    My avalanche (suburban in disguise) had an ecm issue and my mechanic who has about every tool and scanner known to mankind had to pay GM for the software permission to flash the ecm.

    Iirc, the software charge, for a 1 time use, was $150ish. He did the work with his snap on scanner. No special GM tool. He said it took 2 tries, and GM made him pay both times.

    Hth.

    They have warned me about this. But they have not yet replaced the ECM or any of the 7 subordinate control system modules.
     

    indyjohn

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    I worked as a service manager for a similar dealership so I may be off a bit in regards to Chevy. I would look at two possibilities. If your problem is a consistent issue (meaning that when the mechanic has his hands in the machine he can get the failure to occur) and the small time shop cannot fix it, it's time to go to a dealership. If the complaint is not persistent then it likely wouldn't make a lot of difference if you paid Chevy or your buddy. I would compare hourly rates and attempt to figure out how to get the problem to be consistent OR fail on "command."

    See above for a description of the issue. They can replicate the issue when it is cold enough. They have theorized that one of the subordinate systems is "freezing" and shutting down the entire thing. So, they have proposed pulling each system connection, one by one, until it starts. Ergo, last system connection pulled is the offending module. Seems legit.
     

    hog slayer

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    There are a lot of possibilities. I don't know if the scanner is gong to answer your problems. It may, though. You'd have to be very up front with the dealership about when (temp) you want them to test your machine. It won't do any good if it's warm and working. We had a unit that had water intrusion in the starter and would freeze the starter internally. Bring it inside and it'd start. I know you replaced that, but it shows there are numerous possibilities that will be out of the norm for a mechanic. Might do an online search. A lot of times it'll give you a good direction.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Mitchell
    I'm not sure about the tools. But I know the GM folks have bulletins and knowledge bases they can access to look for similar problems that have already been seen and fixed. I don't know if independant guys can get to them or not. When I was a full time GM employee, I could get to some of them but there was an entire other section(s) of the web site I was not given access to.
     

    hog slayer

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    It seems we are on at the same time. They have the right thought, in my opinion. There are ways to bypass systems and sorta cut things out that would help them narrow down the possibilities. I'm not sure I'd go to a different mechanic right now. If the guy that's been on it has been consistent, he should be getting a solid feel for the machine by now. It never hurts to "ask" lost of questions while being polite to your mechanic and have him walk you through what he's done. It helps them sometimes to think critically about their own troubleshooting steps. Might bring him a coffee or something and see if he'll walk you through what he's done and where he could look next. He's frustrated by the problem, too (albeit, not out any money).
     

    indyjohn

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    I'm not sure about the tools. But I know the GM folks have bulletins and knowledge bases they can access to look for similar problems that have already been seen and fixed. I don't know if independant guys can get to them or not. When I was a full time GM employee, I could get to some of them but there was an entire other section(s) of the web site I was not given access to.

    Ya, this is my concern. I want to A: Save a buck and B: Help a Small Business along the way. But as mlewis alluded to, I'm afraid Chevy, by design, has the advantage and a quick path to getting my vehicle back in the reliable column.
     

    hog slayer

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    I'm not sure about the tools. But I know the GM folks have bulletins and knowledge bases they can access to look for similar problems that have already been seen and fixed. I don't know if independant guys can get to them or not. When I was a full time GM employee, I could get to some of them but there was an entire other section(s) of the web site I was not given access to.

    Very true. Again, I didn't work for GM. The dealership I worked at would look these things up if a customer would walk in with VIN#. If you call you haven't made a personal commitment. But if you walk in and shake hands and are generally polite, I'd look them up.
     

    indyjohn

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    It seems we are on at the same time. They have the right thought, in my opinion. There are ways to bypass systems and sorta cut things out that would help them narrow down the possibilities. I'm not sure I'd go to a different mechanic right now. If the guy that's been on it has been consistent, he should be getting a solid feel for the machine by now. It never hurts to "ask" lost of questions while being polite to your mechanic and have him walk you through what he's done. It helps them sometimes to think critically about their own troubleshooting steps. Might bring him a coffee or something and see if he'll walk you through what he's done and where he could look next. He's frustrated by the problem, too (albeit, not out any money).

    His methodology is solid and he's creative, which I may not find at the dealership. He's been in this vehicle a lot. One of his attempts came from a Google search that returned a GM bulletin on the 2010 Suburban that discussed corrosion in the connectors from the subordinate systems to the main ECM. He pulled all seven, cleaned and greased them. Didn't cost much but again, was a sound decision based on fact. Unfortunately, it didn't correct the issue.
     

    indyjohn

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    OkieGirl says it's old and complaining about the cold. It wants to move to Florida. I told her the furthest south this truck is going to get is Owen County. :)
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Mitchell
    Ya, this is my concern. I want to A: Save a buck and B: Help a Small Business along the way. But as mlewis alluded to, I'm afraid Chevy, by design, has the advantage and a quick path to getting my vehicle back in the reliable column.

    I just checked and with my contractor ID, I can still get to that one area. I guessed and entered 2010 Suburban with 4WD and looked down the list of bulletins. I found this. It's not exactly what you describe but it sounds kinda close:

    2010 Chevrolet Suburban - 4WD | Avalanche, Escalade, Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon VIN C/K Service Manual | View All Bulletins | Document ID: 3641476
    #09-06-04-015B: Information on Vehicles Sitting Outside on Dealer Lots for Extended Periods of Time with Hard Start or Crank/No Start Condition - (Nov 4, 2013)
    Subject: Information on Vehicles Sitting Outside on Dealer Lots for Extended Periods of Time with Hard Start or Crank/No Start Condition

    Models: 2009-2014 GM Cars and Trucks
    Attention: The Information in this bulletin applies only to unsold vehicles in dealer inventory and does not apply to customer-owned vehicles that come in for service. DO NOT replace the ECM for this condition.
    This bulletin has been revised to add the 2012-2014 model years. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 09-06-04-015A.

    Some service department personnel may experience a hard start or a crank/no start condition with any of the above vehicles if they were delivered in the late spring/summer/early fall time period, and have remained in inventory for an extended period of time through the winter. This condition is more noticeable in regions of the country that experience cold climates. It may be caused by the vehicle's fuel tank containing a summer-blend quantity of fuel in it that was more suitable to the warmer climate that existed when it was delivered. This condition is known as a fuel blend/season mismatch.

    In the U.S., summer-blend fuel is federally mandated for use in the June 1st to September 15th time frame. Some states, California for example, have enacted their own seasonal-blend regulations that lengthen this time period. Canada has similar regulations for fuel blends that are adjusted seasonally and geographically. Summer-blend fuel has a different (lower) Reid vapor pressure (RVP) which contributes to it being more ecologically friendly, by reducing the rate of evaporation. RVP is the standard used to measure the vapor pressure of gasoline at 38°C (100°F).

    Fuels with a greater RVP evaporate more easily than those with a lower RVP. The main reason that summer-blend gasoline will not work well in the winter is due to its low evaporation rate, which makes an engine difficult to start in cold ambient temperatures. This is the reason that the hard start, no/start condition appears to go away when the vehicle is brought inside the service garage and has had the opportunity to warm up to ambient temperature. However, the condition will repeat itself once the vehicle has been placed back outside on the lot and has cooled back down to a cold ambient temperature.

    If the above condition exhibits itself as explained, or is suspected because the vehicle has been in inventory for an extended period of time, then refuel the vehicle with enough fresh gasoline to start and run.

    In order to prevent further occurrences, do not fill the fuel tank until the vehicle is ready for the Final Inspection & Preparation as indicated in the Pre-Delivery Inspection Form just prior to delivery of the vehicle to the customer.

    If another cause for the crank/no start condition is suspected, then refer to Engine Cranks But Does Not Run in SI.

    And this:

    2010 Chevrolet Suburban - 4WD | Avalanche, Escalade, Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon VIN C/K Service Manual | View All Bulletins | Document ID: 2741490
    #09-06-03-004E: Intermittent No Crank/No Start, No Module Communication, MIL, Warning Lights, Vehicle Messages or DTCs Set by Various Control Modules - Diagnosing and Repairing Fretting Corrosion (Disconnect Affected Connector and Apply Dielectric Lubricant) - (Nov 28, 2011)
    Subject: Intermittent No Crank/No Start, No Module Communication, MIL, Warning Lights, Vehicle Messages or DTCs Set by Various Control Modules – Diagnosing and Repairing Fretting Corrosion (Disconnect Affected Connector and Apply Dielectric Lubricant)

    Models: 2013 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and Trucks
    Attention: This repair can be applied to ANY electrical connection including, but not limited to: lighting, body electrical, in-line connections, powertrain control sensors, etc. DO NOT over apply lubricant to the point where it prevents the full engagement of sealed connectors. A light coating on the terminal surfaces is sufficient to correct the condition.
    This bulletin is being revised to add the 2012-2013 model years, update the information and remove the Warranty Information for Saab Models. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 09-06-03-004D (Section 06 – Engine/Propulsion System).

    Condition
    Some customers may comment on any of the following conditions:

    An intermittent no crank/no start
    Intermittent malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) illumination
    Intermittent service lamp illumination
    Intermittent service message or messages being displayed
    The technician may determine that he is unable to duplicate the intermittent condition.

    Cause
    This condition may be caused by a buildup of non-conductive insulating oxidized debris known as fretting corrosion, occurring between two electrical contact surfaces of the connection or connector. This may be caused by any of the following conditions:

    Vibration
    Thermal cycling
    Poor connection/terminal retention
    Micro motion
    A connector, component or wiring harness not properly secured resulting in movement
    On low current signal circuits this condition may cause high resistance, resulting in intermittent connections.

    On high current power circuits this condition may cause permanent increases in the resistance and may cause a device to become inoperative.

    Representative List of Control Modules and Components

    The following is only a representative list of control modules and components that may be affected by this connection or connector condition and DOES NOT include every possible module or component for every vehicle.

    Blower Control Module
    Body Control Module (BCM)
    Communication Interface Module (CIM)
    Cooling Fan Control Module
    Electronic Brake Control Module (EBCM)
    Electronic Brake and Traction Control Module (EBTCM)
    Electronic Suspension Control (ESC) Module
    Engine Control Module (ECM)
    Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning (HVAC) Control Module
    HVAC Actuator
    Inflatable Restraint Sensing and Diagnostic Module (SDM)
    Any AIR BAG module
    Seat Belt Lap Anchor Pretensioner
    Seat Belt Retractor Pretensioner
    An SIR system connection or connector condition resulting in the following DTCs being set: B0015, B0016, B0019, B0020, B0022, or B0023
    Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
    Remote Control Door Lock Receiver (RCDLR)
    Transmission Control Module (TCM)
    Correction
    Important: DO NOT replace the control module, wiring or component for the following conditions:

    The condition is intermittent and cannot be duplicated.
    The condition is present and by disconnecting and reconnecting the connector the condition can no longer be duplicated.
    Use the following procedure to correct either of the conditions listed above.

    Install a scan tool and perform the Diagnostic System Check – Vehicle. Retrieve and record any existing History, Current, Passed and Failed and Failed Current DTCs from all of the control modules.
    If any DTCs are set, refer to Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) List – Vehicle to identify the connector(s) of the control module/component which may be causing the condition. Refer to SI.
    If DTCs are not set, refer to Symptoms – Vehicle to identify the connector(s) of the control module/component which may be causing the condition. Refer to SI.
    When identified, use the appropriate DTC Diagnostics, Symptoms, Schematics, Component Connector End Views and Component Locator documents to locate and disconnect the affected harness connector or connectors that are causing the condition.
    Note: Fretting corrosion looks like little dark smudges on electrical terminals and appear where the actual electrical contact is being made. In less severe cases it may be unable to be seen or identified without the use of a magnifying glass.
    Object ID: 2214281Click here for detailed picture of the image.
    Important: DO NOT apply an excessive amount of dielectric lubricant to the connector as shown, as hydrolock may result when attempting to mate the connector.
    Use ONLY a clean nylon brush that is dedicated to the repair of the conditions in this bulletin.
    With a one-inch nylon bristle brush, apply dielectric lubricant to both the module/component side and the harness side of the affected connector.
    Reconnect the affected connector and wipe away any excess lubricant that may be present.
    Attempt to duplicate the condition by using the following information:
    DTC Diagnostic Procedure
    Circuit/System Description
    Conditions for Running the DTC
    Conditions for Setting the DTC
    Diagnostic Aids
    Circuit/System Verification
    If the condition cannot be duplicated, the repair is complete.
    If the condition can be duplicated, then follow the appropriate DTC, Symptom or Circuit/System Testing procedure. Refer to SI.
     
    Last edited:

    hog slayer

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    Haha! My wife is in our other house in NC and begging me to pack up our stuff and head south again. We got snow and she's been at the beach (cold, but sunny). I understand!
     

    thunderchicken

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    Dealerships do have additional programs in some cases that allow their scan tools/lap tops to get more info than is released to manufacturers of generic scan tools. Also every manufacturer dealership has access to their network(Ford- OASIS/ Chrysler - WITECH) that will give vehicle specific technical service bulletins, and they all also have their own technician service hotline where they can access their own engineers to help work through specific/ unusual problems. Those are typically not available to private shops. Long & short it maybe worth having them look at it.
     

    indyjohn

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    Haha! My wife is in our other house in NC and begging me to pack up our stuff and head south again. We got snow and she's been at the beach (cold, but sunny). I understand!

    OkieGirl has no interest in FL. but she does hate the cold..

    Owen - KEEP LOOKING!! The bulletin you pointed out does not apply because the Suburban is a daily driver, it cycles the fuel tank once a week.
     

    indyjohn

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    Dealerships do have additional programs in some cases that allow their scan tools/lap tops to get more info than is released to manufacturers of generic scan tools. Also every manufacturer dealership has access to their network(Ford- OASIS/ Chrysler - WITECH) that will give vehicle specific technical service bulletins, and they all also have their own technician service hotline where they can access their own engineers to help work through specific/ unusual problems. Those are typically not available to private shops. Long & short it maybe worth having them look at it.

    Thanks for the input!
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Mitchell
    I just checked and with my contractor ID, I can still get to that one area. I guessed and entered 2010 Suburban with 4WD and looked down the list of bulletins. I found this. It's not exactly what you describe but it sounds kinda close:



    And this:

    Or this:

    Service Information Home Publications Number Search New Bulletins Bulletin Search Feedback TIS2Web Help

    2010 Chevrolet Suburban - 4WD | Avalanche, Escalade, Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon VIN C/K Service Manual | View All Bulletins | Document ID: 2397771
    #09-08-50-017B: No Crank, No Start, Discharged or Low Battery (Reprogram Rear Heated Seat Module) - (Feb 11, 2010)
    Subject: No Crank, No Start, Discharged or Low Battery (Reprogram Rear Heated Seat Module)

    Models: 2006–2010 Cadillac DTS
    Built Prior to February 2, 2010
    2007–2010 Cadillac Escalade, Escalade ESV
    2007–2010 Chevrolet Suburban, Tahoe
    2007–2010 GMC Yukon, Yukon XL
    Built Prior to November 30, 2009
    All Equipped with Rear Heated Seat RPO KA6
    This bulletin is being revised to add build breakpoint dates. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 09-08-50-017A (Section 08 – Body and Accessories).

    Condition
    Some customers may comment about a no crank/no start condition or a discharged or low battery.

    Note: This condition may be intermittent, therefore it is important to check if a revised calibration has been released on TIS2WEB for this concern, even if the condition cannot be duplicated at the dealer.

    Cause
    This condition may be caused by the rear heated seat module (RHSM) discharging the battery by keeping the serial data bus active, which creates a cumulative continuous draw of four amps on the battery after the vehicle is shut down, until the state of charge reaches three volts.

    Correction
    Important: DO NOT replace the RHSM or the battery for this concern.

    Reprogram the RHSM with the latest software calibration.

    Important: Select the correct calibration files for the appropriate vehicle configuration (body style) and RPO codes.

    A revised calibration has been developed to address this condition. Technicians are to reprogram the RHSM using the Service Programming System (SPS) with the latest software available on TIS2WEB. Refer to the Service Programming System (SPS) procedures in SI.

    When using a Tech 2® or a Multiple Diagnostic Interface (MDI) for reprogramming, ensure that it is updated with the latest software version.

    During programming, the battery voltage must be maintained within the proper range of 12-15 volts. Only use the approved Midtronics® PSC 550 Battery Maintainer (SPS Programming Support Tool EL-49642) or equivalent during programming.
     
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