Choke attacker at Purdue (Aug '14) out of jail

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  • Bill of Rights

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    Purdue University student Boda Wu to raise insanity defense in choke attack

    Long and short of it, the accusation is that one student approached the other, wrapped a telephone wire around her neck, and choked her. She claims she'd never seen him before, so random attack. Now he's out of jail and in a secure mental facility.

    Professionally, I know the facility where the story says he is. (No, I have NOT been a patient there, thankyouverymuch!) The doors are locked by keycard/fob, and in that respect, it is indeed secure. I'm not aware of them taking "forensic" patients before this, though it's very possible they have and I just didn't know it. While reading this, I wondered several things:

    What if the site of the attack hadn't made lawful carry a punishable offense (not a crime, but extralegal punishment, i.e. termination/expulsion)? Would the victim or someone else have been able to have ended this threat?

    The story says that if convicted, he will be "Guilty but mentally ill", which I understand to be different from "not guilty by reason of insanity". Does this mean that once declared competent, he will then face a period of time as a guest of the state, or is time in a mental facility (and actually, a fairly nice one) counted as "time served"?

    Does this facility, then, qualify as a place where carry is an actual crime? (if it is, I've never noticed safe storage anywhere, as I've seen at other lockups, presumably for police use, but I never saw anything that restricted such to LEOs. This is one of the very few GFZs I would support, if applied universally.)

    If the previous question is answered in the affirmative, how does that impact the carry of a knife?

    Sarcastically, I also wondered when the calls would begin for "phone cord control", but then I thought about the locked units at the facility: The nurse stations are open, such that patients could easily reach over and take any number of objects. While there are usually enough people to stop a single patient from causing too much mayhem or attempting escape, if all this guy needed was a phone cord, what could/would he do with a stapler or phone (bludgeon) or another cord, were he to catch an aide or a nurse unaware?

    We've all seen the movies where someone fakes illness to get out of a jail setting and make an escape attempt; What happens when this guy does that? Ambulance crews are not police, and if he were to move to escape the back of a rig, they have no authority to attempt to stop him. (Restraints are HIGHLY discouraged, and some rigs don't even have them available onboard.) There are EMTs of both genders who are fairly small and, while not frail, would be more easily overpowered by a determined attacker, bent on escape. Who is protecting them enroute?

    Discuss.

    Blessings,
    Bill
     

    T.Lex

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    The story says that if convicted, he will be "Guilty but mentally ill", which I understand to be different from "not guilty by reason of insanity". Does this mean that once declared competent, he will then face a period of time as a guest of the state, or is time in a mental facility (and actually, a fairly nice one) counted as "time served"?

    Oy vey. There are different ways to answer the question "How is Guilty but Mentally Ill (GBMI) different than Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity (NGRI)?"

    To start with, when a defendant tenders a Notice of Insanity Defense, it tells the court and the prosecutor that this trial is going to get expensive and complicated. One way it gets complicated is that it adds 2 more possible verdicts: (the normal) not guilty, guilty, (and then) GBMI and NGRI. So, ultimately, it is up to the jury to figure out which verdict is most appropriate.

    Another important point is that these are legal determinations, not medical. If you ask the medical professionals, they would probably say that there is no rational way to predict what juries will do. That's probably true (in many ways). But, a DSM-5 diagnosis does not bind the jury to any particular course of action. This is a legal decision based on (hopefully) medical evidence.

    GBMI is kinda like what you describe. The person is guilty of the crime but mentally ill (under tests that the jury receives instructions on), so they stay in a secure mental facility until they are "cured." Think John Hinkley, Jr., - he stayed in a mental facility instead of prison.

    NGRI is basically what the good guy claimed in the John Grisham novel "A Time to Kill." The guy killed the guy that raped and killed his daughter. (Let's set aside the other options and pretend it was truly temporary insanity.) The person had a mental issue that made them unaware of the wrongfulness of their actions. That could be temporary or permanent. Either way, if the the jury finds NGRI, the person is legally not guilty.

    This is a complicated rabbit-hole of legal, semi-medical and fact issues. This post is a broad-brushstroke type answer, but there are many details that can sometimes get pretty obscure.

    Also, since they added GBMI, I'm not sure I've seen a NGRI verdict in Indiana. Can't say it hasn't happened, I just can't think of one off the top of my head.

    ETA: bad omission on my part - a defendant found NGRI can still be involuntarily committed, but that is a different process.
     
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    Thor

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    Not first run in with the law for man charged with strangulation | wlfi.com This was not his first dance.

    Phone cord is almost getting to be old school...

    Political correctness drives advocating for the general populace to be convenient victims because you can not pre-judge or profile anyone for any reason. The crazy man is not crazy until he does something crazy to you personally. The protestors are peaceful until they burn your house down. At no point can reality enter into the discussion until it is too late...then we must move to peacefully restrain the dears and rehabilitate them as we atone for our past indiscretions.

    For the safety of future ambulance crews I sincerely hope that this 'quest student' is transported by paddy wagon.

    In this or any other article I could not find the topic covered, it would be interesting to know whether or not this Chinese student is a Uyghur. While he may indeed be loony it would give a basis for his target selection.
     

    Bill of Rights

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    Oy vey. There are different ways to answer the question "How is Guilty but Mentally Ill (GBMI) different than Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity (NGRI)?"

    To start with, when a defendant tenders a Notice of Insanity Defense, it tells the court and the prosecutor that this trial is going to get expensive and complicated. One way it gets complicated is that it adds 2 more possible verdicts: (the normal) not guilty, guilty, (and then) GBMI and NGRI. So, ultimately, it is up to the jury to figure out which verdict is most appropriate.

    Another important point is that these are legal determinations, not medical. If you ask the medical professionals, they would probably say that there is no rational way to predict what juries will do. That's probably true (in many ways). But, a DSM-5 diagnosis does not bind the jury to any particular course of action. This is a legal decision based on (hopefully) medical evidence.

    GBMI is kinda like what you describe. The person is guilty of the crime but mentally ill (under tests that the jury receives instructions on), so they stay in a secure mental facility until they are "cured." Think John Hinkley, Jr., - he stayed in a mental facility instead of prison.

    NGRI is basically what the good guy claimed in the John Grisham novel "A Time to Kill." The guy killed the guy that raped and killed his daughter. (Let's set aside the other options and pretend it was truly temporary insanity.) The person had a mental issue that made them unaware of the wrongfulness of their actions. That could be temporary or permanent. Either way, if the the jury finds NGRI, the person is legally not guilty.

    This is a complicated rabbit-hole of legal, semi-medical and fact issues. This post is a broad-brushstroke type answer, but there are many details that can sometimes get pretty obscure.

    Also, since they added GBMI, I'm not sure I've seen a NGRI verdict in Indiana. Can't say it hasn't happened, I just can't think of one off the top of my head.

    ETA: bad omission on my part - a defendant found NGRI can still be involuntarily committed, but that is a different process.

    Thanks T.

    So if I understand you, GBMI means a guilty verdict, for which the person will stay in a secure psych facility until he is judged to no longer be insane, which may never happen or may happen in, say, six months (random time period; assign no meaning to it) If in fact that random time period IS as little as six months, is the person transferred directly to prison, in keeping with the guilty verdict, or does it have to go back to the punishment phase of the trial for a jury or judge to determine the sentence? Conversely, a successful NGRI defense, might mean committal under the other process to which you alluded, but once that treatment is completed, what then? How would such a plea/verdict affect such things as a person's gun rights, since that's the primary focus of this board, or any requirement for the defendant to register on the SVOR?

    Further, what of my question re: carry at that facility? Is it a criminal act, if they are treating forensic patients/"clients"? If so, this begs the follow up questions of whether it is also a crime when the only patients there are voluntary, say, to dry out, or related to a suicidal ideation in the absence of court action (that is, Sue E. Cide walks up to the door and presents herself for admission, saying, "I need help!") If it is, how would someone know whether the gunbuster sign on the front door carried any legal weight or not?
    (hypothetical example: My neighbor happens to be "Sue" in the previous parenthetical phrase; I want to go visit her while she's there, take her some flowers to cheer her up or some such...) I carry. They have a policy that says "no guns", but no metal detector. If I'm only barred from entry if they know about it, and I CC so they don't... Is a crime committed if the above assailant is a patient, and not if he is not? Or ???? What about if I carry a pocketknife? (I do.) Is that a crime under those circumstances?

    I think we're all of the same belief re: Purdue allowing/disallowing guns; that question was a no-brainer,

    Thor: I'm not aware of Lafayette having a "paddy wagon" to use for situations like that.

    Thanks for the feedback, guys, I appreciate it. :)

    Blessings,
    Bill
     

    T.Lex

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    So if I understand you, GBMI means a guilty verdict, for which the person will stay in a secure psych facility until he is judged to no longer be insane, which may never happen or may happen in, say, six months (random time period; assign no meaning to it) If in fact that random time period IS as little as six months, is the person transferred directly to prison, in keeping with the guilty verdict, or does it have to go back to the punishment phase of the trial for a jury or judge to determine the sentence?
    Ok, first, this is a bit of a lesson in doing this from memory. I should have checked the IC.

    With GBMI, the person is sentenced as if guilty, then treated.
    IC 35-36-2-5
    ... the court shall sentence the defendant in the same manner as a defendant found guilty of the offense.
    ...
    If a defendant who is found guilty but mentally ill at the time of the crime is committed to the department of correction, the defendant shall be further evaluated and then treated in such a manner as is psychiatrically indicated for the defendant's mental illness.

    The defendant's treatment can either be within DOC or a secure facility. So, if sentenced to 40 years, but GBMI, the sentence is 40 years, with medical treatment while still clinically [whatever], and then in the appropriate facility when cured of [whatever].

    NGRI (or, as labelled Non-Responsible by Reason of Insanity], 35-35-2-4. If the jury finds this to be true, there is a commitment proceeding. Once committed, if "cured" they are released. They are not imprisoned because the jury found that they were not responsible.

    Further, what of my question re: carry at that facility?

    I have no idea. Obviously, if it is a DOC or county jail secured facility, carry is a no-go. As I recall (which seems risky at this point), the hospital issue turns on whether it is a "county" hospital or not. If not, I suspect it is a private-property-owner restriction, not a law violation.
     

    Bill of Rights

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    Ok, first, this is a bit of a lesson in doing this from memory. I should have checked the IC.

    With GBMI, the person is sentenced as if guilty, then treated.
    IC 35-36-2-5


    The defendant's treatment can either be within DOC or a secure facility. So, if sentenced to 40 years, but GBMI, the sentence is 40 years, with medical treatment while still clinically [whatever], and then in the appropriate facility when cured of [whatever].

    NGRI (or, as labelled Non-Responsible by Reason of Insanity], 35-35-2-4. If the jury finds this to be true, there is a commitment proceeding. Once committed, if "cured" they are released. They are not imprisoned because the jury found that they were not responsible.



    I have no idea. Obviously, if it is a DOC or county jail secured facility, carry is a no-go. As I recall (which seems risky at this point), the hospital issue turns on whether it is a "county" hospital or not. If not, I suspect it is a private-property-owner restriction, not a law violation.

    Thanks for clarifying. The facility is private, not governmental. They usually treat substance abuse/withdrawal and suicidal ideation (among other cases, of course) on a voluntary basis, locked units notwithstanding. Additional info: When I went into town a bit ago, I drove by there and looked. There were no gunbuster signs visible from outside. While they may still have a restriction, I'm thinking "concealed means concealed" would apply if I ever had reason to visit someone there. I was concerned that the caveat that Guy mentions in his class, re: having a firearm when entering a police station with a jail cell in it could constitute trafficking with an inmate, and was curious if doing so there would run afoul of the law. I don't see that ever affecting me, but others might have use for the info at some point, if not there then at other, similar facilities.

    Blessings,
    Bill
     
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