No firearms signs carry weight of law in Indiana?

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  • TRW

    Plinker
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    I know there are multiple old threads talking about "No Firearms" signs in Indiana, but I am wondering specifically if there is anything official stating this fact for Indiana? Or is the silence of the law on "No Firearms" signs the basis for this conclusion?
     

    foszoe

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    NO.

    You can be trespassed off the property if you refuse to leave
     

    Libertarian01

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    My understanding is that IF they are worded in an extremely precise way they may(?) get you automatically for trespassing without the opportunity to leave, but that they do NOT carry any weight of law otherwise.

    I will wait for the legal eagles to correct my understanding (or misunderstanding.)

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Under Indiana law, if you break that private property rule, they can trespass you by calling the police and telling them you are no longer welcome. You are not charged until you come back a second time. (or refuse to leave when asked/trespassed)

    I dont see how you could be trespassed automatically so that as soon as the police arrive you are cuffed and stuffed just because you broke a rule that isnt against the law, just against what that person wants happening on their property.

    CC, keep your mouth shut and dont worry about it. And if you are really worried about it, Just dont go to that business and give them your money. Vote with your feet. Of course I recommend telling them that you arent going to do business with them and why, otherwise they wont know that they arent getting your money. If enough of us complain, they may change their policy.
     

    The Bubba Effect

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    I know there are multiple old threads talking about "No Firearms" signs in Indiana, but I am wondering specifically if there is anything official stating this fact for Indiana? Or is the silence of the law on "No Firearms" signs the basis for this conclusion?

    Are you asking if there is anything in the Indiana Code that states that "No Firearms" signs do not carry weight of law?

    If that is what you are asking, I know of nothing in the Indiana law that says that "No Firearms" signs carry no weight of law, but I am not a lawyer or any of those fancy type folks.

    If that is not the question you are asking, please clarify.
     

    TRW

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    I "discreet" carry a lot, especially in the winter, but I don't fret much about my jacket opening enough to expose an OWB holster with S&W 686 SSR hence the weaker term "discreet." Frankly, I am not interested in getting attention, but I'm not anti-open carry either. I just want to make sure I'm obeying the laws, respecting private property, while being a safe and protective presence concealed or otherwise.
     

    TRW

    Plinker
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    My question is asking if the law speaks to this or if it is silent. What I am gathering thus far is that it is silent on the issue. I'm originally from Michigan, but I moved to Tennessee, then Kentucky, now across the Ohio to Indiana. Basically I'm just trying to keep up with the law. There are quite a lot of No Firearms sign in Louisville, KY it seems. So I am coming from that context.
     

    AngryRooster

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    My question is asking if the law speaks to this or if it is silent. What I am gathering thus far is that it is silent on the issue. I'm originally from Michigan, but I moved to Tennessee, then Kentucky, now across the Ohio to Indiana. Basically I'm just trying to keep up with the law. There are quite a lot of No Firearms sign in Louisville, KY it seems. So I am coming from that context.


    Others may correct me if I'm wrong. The difference between Indiana and those other states is that Indiana has nothing on the books about it where the other states do. You don't need a law stating something is legal, only if it's illegal. If there is no law against it then it's legal. Once those other states put something on the books they had defined it. Since there is nothing in the IC about it then there is no restrictions on it.

    In other words, it's legal since there is nothing saying it isn't.
     

    Libertarian01

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    Under Indiana law, if you break that private property rule, they can trespass you by calling the police and telling them you are no longer welcome. You are not charged until you come back a second time. (or refuse to leave when asked/trespassed)

    I dont see how you could be trespassed automatically so that as soon as the police arrive you are cuffed and stuffed just because you broke a rule that isnt against the law, just against what that person wants happening on their property.

    CC, keep your mouth shut and dont worry about it. And if you are really worried about it, Just dont go to that business and give them your money. Vote with your feet. Of course I recommend telling them that you arent going to do business with them and why, otherwise they wont know that they arent getting your money. If enough of us complain, they may change their policy.


    It is my nonlegal understanding that IF the sign is worded in a very specific way, as an example: "No firearms are allowed. Any person carrying a firearm is not welcome and considered trespassing." Something like that allows the property owner to have you "cuffed and stuffed" without asking you to leave first.

    However, most signs are not worded in the fashion required to "cuff and stuff" and therefore the belligerent must first be asked to leave.

    Note that I am NOT completely defending this position, only allowing that a minor exception to the general rule does not fall through the cracks of understanding.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    KittySlayer

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    NO.

    You can be trespassed off the property if you refuse to leave

    While misguided property owners may choose to post signs that do not carry the weight of law it is important that you also know the law.

    That NO Firearms sign may be warning you about someplace where it truly is illegal to carry (i.e. a hospital with a licensed school inside, etc.).
     

    Kutnupe14

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    NO.

    You can be trespassed off the property if you refuse to leave

    Well not quite. If you ignore an improperly worded/placed sign, you can be trespassed. But if you are asked to leave, and you refuse, sign or no, you can be arrested. A properly worded/placed sign does have weight of law. If you ignore it, you technically can be arrested. The language exists in Indiana Code for a sign to be a legal denial of entry, upon disregarding an arrest can be enacted.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    It is my nonlegal understanding that IF the sign is worded in a very specific way, as an example: "No firearms are allowed. Any person carrying a firearm is not welcome and considered trespassing." Something like that allows the property owner to have you "cuffed and stuffed" without asking you to leave first.

    However, most signs are not worded in the fashion required to "cuff and stuff" and therefore the belligerent must first be asked to leave.

    Note that I am NOT completely defending this position, only allowing that a minor exception to the general rule does not fall through the cracks of understanding.

    Regards,

    Doug

    I dont know of any LEO in Indiana that would haul you away on the spot because of a sign, even if it were possible to do so. They would likely ask you to leave the premises with them and if you obey, will send you on your way. Now if you were noncompliant, or they had ulterior motives, maybe. (need a convenient excuse to search you, etc)

    After all, without standards for signage, how do they prove you actually SAW the sign? I believe that is why states like OH have such specific signage requirements. That allows us to know where to look for the sign, and make sure it is of an appropriate size so it catches our eye. If they forgot a sign on one of the doors, the sign is inside on a wall you may not have looked at, the sign is too small to catch your eye, etc. it doesnt count. Imagine inconsistent speed limit signs for example. How could we be expected to know how fast to go if everybody's signs were different, or some jackwagon of a podunk town decided to put a TEENY TINY reduced speed limit sign just to catch speeders coming through his town.

    But welcome to Indiana where we are a bit laid back compared to our neighbors.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    I dont know of any LEO in Indiana that would haul you away on the spot because of a sign, even if it were possible to do so. They would likely ask you to leave the premises with them and if you obey, will send you on your way. Now if you were noncompliant, or they had ulterior motives, maybe. (need a convenient excuse to search you, etc)

    After all, without standards for signage, how do they prove you actually SAW the sign? I believe that is why states like OH have such specific signage requirements. That allows us to know where to look for the sign, and make sure it is of an appropriate size so it catches our eye. If they forgot a sign on one of the doors, the sign is inside on a wall you may not have looked at, the sign is too small to catch your eye, etc. it doesnt count. Imagine inconsistent speed limit signs for example. How could we be expected to know how fast to go if everybody's signs were different, or some jackwagon of a podunk town decided to put a TEENY TINY reduced speed limit sign just to catch speeders coming through his town.

    But welcome to Indiana where we are a bit laid back compared to our neighbors.

    This is true. Lots of legitimate trespassing go without arrests as long as the person is willing to leave.
     

    Excalibur

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    North West Indiana has a lot of crap from certain people who moved here from Chicago or just influenced since we are that close. The vast majority of Dems are in NWI so there are plenty of no gun signs and Liberal anti-gun stuff up here but thankfully no gun signs do not carry the weight of the law unless it is already a Gun Free Zone.
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    I dont see how you could be trespassed automatically so that as soon as the police arrive you are cuffed and stuffed just because you broke a rule that isnt against the law, just against what that person wants happening on their property.

    Ever hear of someone being arrested, prosecuted, and convicted for ignoring a no trespassing sign? Without additional warning? I have.

    Others may correct me if I'm wrong. The difference between Indiana and those other states is that Indiana has nothing on the books about it where the other states do. You don't need a law stating something is legal, only if it's illegal. If there is no law against it then it's legal. Once those other states put something on the books they had defined it. Since there is nothing in the IC about it then there is no restrictions on it.

    In other words, it's legal since there is nothing saying it isn't.

    There is nothing on the books about no gun signs. There is IC on denial of entry signs. I'll post the IC below.



    It is my nonlegal understanding that IF the sign is worded in a very specific way, as an example: "No firearms are allowed. Any person carrying a firearm is not welcome and considered trespassing." Something like that allows the property owner to have you "cuffed and stuffed" without asking you to leave first.

    However, most signs are not worded in the fashion required to "cuff and stuff" and therefore the belligerent must first be asked to leave.

    Note that I am NOT completely defending this position, only allowing that a minor exception to the general rule does not fall through the cracks of understanding.

    Regards,

    Doug

    The key words are denied entry.

    Example sign "Firearms are prohibited, anyone in possession of a firearm is hereby denied entrance".

    I dont know of any LEO in Indiana that would haul you away on the spot because of a sign, even if it were possible to do so. They would likely ask you to leave the premises with them and if you obey, will send you on your way. Now if you were noncompliant, or they had ulterior motives, maybe. (need a convenient excuse to search you, etc)

    After all, without standards for signage, how do they prove you actually SAW the sign? I believe that is why states like OH have such specific signage requirements.

    While most LEOs wouldn't arrest right then. People have been arrested for trespassing after going past a no trespassing sign without being told to leave.

    There is "standards" for signage, and they don't have to prove that you saw the sign. The standards are likely to come to the attention of the public, and posted at the main entrance. Here is the applicable part of the IC for trespass. See the bolded sections.
    IC 35-43-2-2 Version a
    Criminal trespass; denial of entry; permission to enter; exceptions
    Note: This version of section amended by P.L.203-2013, SEC.25.
    See also following version of this section amended by P.L.158-2013,
    SEC.462, effective 7-1-2014.
    Sec. 2. (a) A person who:
    (1) not having a contractual interest in the property, knowingly
    or intentionally enters the real property of another person after
    having been denied entry by the other person or that person's
    agent;
    (b) A person has been denied entry under subdivision (a)(1) of
    this section when the person has been denied entry by means of:

    (1) personal communication, oral or written;
    (2) posting or exhibiting a notice at the main entrance in a
    manner that is either prescribed by law or likely to come to the
    attention of the public; or
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Flat out No Trespassing is quite different than being there lawfully EXCEPT for something on your person. Apples and oranges.

    The former there is absolutely ZERO excuse for the Trespasser to be there. ZERO. The latter it is not automatically obvious and there can be a legitimate reason to be there.

    Walking into my private home without my permission and without an invite, is MUCH different than ticking off the owner of the QwikEMart where you are allowed to be otherwise except for an arbitrary rule.

    And once again, it hinges on the officer. Kut sees you in my house and he knows you arent supposed to be there under any circumstance, there is no reason not to arrest you. However if he is notified I disqualified myself from being there because I am carrying, he is less likely to arrest me.

    Yes, it can happen. Not saying it cant. Just like you can be suffocated on the sidewalk for selling individual cigarettes. But its not likely to a reasonable person.
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    Flat out No Trespassing is quite different than being there lawfully EXCEPT for something on your person. Apples and oranges.

    The former there is absolutely ZERO excuse for the Trespasser to be there. ZERO. The latter it is not automatically obvious and there can be a legitimate reason to be there.

    Walking into my private home without my permission and without an invite, is MUCH different than ticking off the owner of the QwikEMart where you are allowed to be otherwise except for an arbitrary rule.

    And once again, it hinges on the officer. Kut sees you in my house and he knows you arent supposed to be there under any circumstance, there is no reason not to arrest you. However if he is notified I disqualified myself from being there because I am carrying, he is less likely to arrest me.

    Yes, it can happen. Not saying it cant. Just like you can be suffocated on the sidewalk for selling individual cigarettes. But its not likely to a reasonable person.

    Why is a no trespassing sign any different than any other denial of entry sign? How about "employee's only beyond this point, all others are denied entry"? Whether you have a legitimate reason to be there doesn't matter if you are not the owner or have a contractual interest in the property. My kids drone crashed on someone's property, they have a no trespass sign up. Do I have the right to go on their property to retrieve my son's toy? Look at hunting, I shoot a deer, it runs and drops dead 3 ft over the property line. I have a legitimate reason to go, I can still be arrested unless I have permission from the property owner.

    There have been at least 3 (I think more but not positive) attorneys on this site weigh in on it, all have agreed that a properly worded sign would be enough by itself for arrest.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Why is a no trespassing sign any different than any other denial of entry sign? How about "employee's only beyond this point, all others are denied entry"? Whether you have a legitimate reason to be there doesn't matter if you are not the owner or have a contractual interest in the property. My kids drone crashed on someone's property, they have a no trespass sign up. Do I have the right to go on their property to retrieve my son's toy? Look at hunting, I shoot a deer, it runs and drops dead 3 ft over the property line. I have a legitimate reason to go, I can still be arrested unless I have permission from the property owner.

    There have been at least 3 (I think more but not positive) attorneys on this site weigh in on it, all have agreed that a properly worded sign would be enough by itself for arrest.


    You missed my point. "you are never allowed here" is MUCH different than "you are allowed to be here except..." each will get a different response from LEOs. (Hey buddy, you know you arent allowed to be here! vs did you know you cant be here with that?) That is my point.

    And see post 14.

    Both responses can happen.
     
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