Spawned by a discussion in another recent thread, lovemywoods and I set out to put some theories to the test. If you haven't read that thread first, take a minute and get up to speed.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...5-shooting_a_third_party_scenario_inside.html
The main question that started this whole thing was one of legality, not tactics. But, as things often do here on INGO, the tactical and practical significance of such a scenario started to come up.
We decided to explore several questions and put them to the test.
Question #1: What does 80 yards look like? Is it reasonable to find a scenario in which your child would be 80 yards away from your position?
Answer: Eighty yards is MUCH further than I had originally anticipated when I posed the scenario. I was trying to get across the idea of your child being far enough away that you couldn't run to them quickly, but close enough that taking a pistol shot was doable, even if it was difficult and risky.
lovemywoods and I took out a long tape measure and measured out 80 yards in his side yard. It was immediately evident that 80 yards is pretty far away, thereby making the thought of having your child that far away a rarity. Oddly enough, even 50 yards looked fairly far in the yard, although it looked less far when we measured 50 yards down on the lake dam. Spatial relationships and perspectives can get funky.
Question #2: If 80 yards is too far away, what would be a more reasonable and realistic distance for such a scenario?
Answer: Fifty yards looked more like the outside boundary of what would be reasonable and realistic. After seeing what 50 yards looked like in the side yard and deciding to use this as our benchmark, we decided to move down to the "zeroing range" on the dam, which was already measured out to 50 yards, to run our test. We re-measured with the tape just to be sure. As a reminder, 50 yards is 150 feet.
Question #3: Assuming the legal requirements for such a shot were met, could a person engage a driver inside a vehicle from 50 yards with any amount of accuracy using a pistol, such that they wouldn't endanger any innocents?
To simulate a car-sized target, we used 2 large pieces of cardboard. You can see here that together they closely equal the size of a car or truck when viewed from the rear.
We propped the target against a standard target stand. To simulate a driver we stapled an IPSC silhouette to the left half of the cardboard. I'm posed here as a size reference.
Also standing 50 yards away, lovemywoods filmed the 3 attempts, with me using slightly different tactics for each attempt. Before the safety nazis start screaming that I am dangerously coming from behind the cameraman, rest assured that I was simply beside him, just out of frame.
Although his camera has a habit of compressing distance somewhat, here's an example of how far away I was starting.
The first run I shot several rounds from a stationary position 50 yards away. I was shooting as fast as I could using mostly body position and indexing to aim. I obtained a single sight picture at the beginning and just started pulling the trigger quickly. I felt this was what my body naturally wanted to do after I had amped myself up before starting the scenario.
[ame]http://youtu.be/PRGKpa1bcus[/ame]
Here was the result on target.
The second round I again fired several rounds from the same position. This time, however, I decelerated my actions, focused on using my sights, and got a separate sight picture for each shot. You'll notice that my cadence was slower, but not what I would consider "slow" given the distance and the situation.
[ame]http://youtu.be/BEcJm6GbObw[/ame]
Here was the result on target.
For the third round I decided to cover half the distance on foot first, and then engage from around 25 yards. Shots were again fired deliberately using the sights for each shot.
[ame]http://youtu.be/cvoXRSFB4y8[/ame]
Here was the result on target.
Round 1 was a complete disaster. All but one of my rounds hit something other than the vehicle or driver. They could've hit my child, a bystander, or damaged someone else's property.
Round 2 felt VERY good and was a TOTAL surprise to me personally. Slowing down a gear paid dividends in getting effective hits on target-- both the driver and the vehicle. But you will notice that I still had 1 round unaccounted for, something that is easy to do at such a far distance.
Round 3 was interesting. Although I was able to cut down the distance my shot had to cover, I was more fatigued when firing. This translated to all my hits finding their mark, but hitting lower on the driver.
So back to the original question-- Assuming the legal requirements for such a shot were met, could a person engage a driver inside a vehicle from 50 yards with any amount of accuracy using a pistol, such that they wouldn't endanger any innocents?
Answer: Yes it is possible, but its risky and requires a certain level of skill and confidence. Taking this kind of action should only be done as a last resort.
Running this test was a real eye-opener for me. It helped me to better understand my own personal boundaries when it comes to taking longer distance shots with a pistol. While I now know that I can do it, I also now realize what it takes to make effective hits.
I would encourage anyone else interested in his topic to try it out for yourself next time you're at the range. While I pray that none of us ever have to face such a scenario, knowing that you have the ability to potentially change the outcome of stressful events is a big part of the self-defense picture.
I welcome any comments, questions, or criticisms!
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...5-shooting_a_third_party_scenario_inside.html
The main question that started this whole thing was one of legality, not tactics. But, as things often do here on INGO, the tactical and practical significance of such a scenario started to come up.
We decided to explore several questions and put them to the test.
Question #1: What does 80 yards look like? Is it reasonable to find a scenario in which your child would be 80 yards away from your position?
Answer: Eighty yards is MUCH further than I had originally anticipated when I posed the scenario. I was trying to get across the idea of your child being far enough away that you couldn't run to them quickly, but close enough that taking a pistol shot was doable, even if it was difficult and risky.
lovemywoods and I took out a long tape measure and measured out 80 yards in his side yard. It was immediately evident that 80 yards is pretty far away, thereby making the thought of having your child that far away a rarity. Oddly enough, even 50 yards looked fairly far in the yard, although it looked less far when we measured 50 yards down on the lake dam. Spatial relationships and perspectives can get funky.
Question #2: If 80 yards is too far away, what would be a more reasonable and realistic distance for such a scenario?
Answer: Fifty yards looked more like the outside boundary of what would be reasonable and realistic. After seeing what 50 yards looked like in the side yard and deciding to use this as our benchmark, we decided to move down to the "zeroing range" on the dam, which was already measured out to 50 yards, to run our test. We re-measured with the tape just to be sure. As a reminder, 50 yards is 150 feet.
Question #3: Assuming the legal requirements for such a shot were met, could a person engage a driver inside a vehicle from 50 yards with any amount of accuracy using a pistol, such that they wouldn't endanger any innocents?
The Basic Setup
Simulated vehicle and driver set 50 yards downrange
Shooter (esrice) attempts to engage driver
Pistol is S&W M&P9 w/Apex trigger and Trijicon HD sights
Targets are then evaluated for accuracy
Not timed, but shooter is amped up and moving dynamically to simulate as much realism as possible
Scenario is started by shooter yelling "No!" to disrupt kidnappers' OODA loop
Simulated vehicle and driver set 50 yards downrange
Shooter (esrice) attempts to engage driver
Pistol is S&W M&P9 w/Apex trigger and Trijicon HD sights
Targets are then evaluated for accuracy
Not timed, but shooter is amped up and moving dynamically to simulate as much realism as possible
Scenario is started by shooter yelling "No!" to disrupt kidnappers' OODA loop
To simulate a car-sized target, we used 2 large pieces of cardboard. You can see here that together they closely equal the size of a car or truck when viewed from the rear.
We propped the target against a standard target stand. To simulate a driver we stapled an IPSC silhouette to the left half of the cardboard. I'm posed here as a size reference.
Also standing 50 yards away, lovemywoods filmed the 3 attempts, with me using slightly different tactics for each attempt. Before the safety nazis start screaming that I am dangerously coming from behind the cameraman, rest assured that I was simply beside him, just out of frame.
Although his camera has a habit of compressing distance somewhat, here's an example of how far away I was starting.
Round 1
The first run I shot several rounds from a stationary position 50 yards away. I was shooting as fast as I could using mostly body position and indexing to aim. I obtained a single sight picture at the beginning and just started pulling the trigger quickly. I felt this was what my body naturally wanted to do after I had amped myself up before starting the scenario.
[ame]http://youtu.be/PRGKpa1bcus[/ame]
Here was the result on target.
Round 2
The second round I again fired several rounds from the same position. This time, however, I decelerated my actions, focused on using my sights, and got a separate sight picture for each shot. You'll notice that my cadence was slower, but not what I would consider "slow" given the distance and the situation.
[ame]http://youtu.be/BEcJm6GbObw[/ame]
Here was the result on target.
Round 3
For the third round I decided to cover half the distance on foot first, and then engage from around 25 yards. Shots were again fired deliberately using the sights for each shot.
[ame]http://youtu.be/cvoXRSFB4y8[/ame]
Here was the result on target.
Observations
Round 1 was a complete disaster. All but one of my rounds hit something other than the vehicle or driver. They could've hit my child, a bystander, or damaged someone else's property.
Round 2 felt VERY good and was a TOTAL surprise to me personally. Slowing down a gear paid dividends in getting effective hits on target-- both the driver and the vehicle. But you will notice that I still had 1 round unaccounted for, something that is easy to do at such a far distance.
Round 3 was interesting. Although I was able to cut down the distance my shot had to cover, I was more fatigued when firing. This translated to all my hits finding their mark, but hitting lower on the driver.
So back to the original question-- Assuming the legal requirements for such a shot were met, could a person engage a driver inside a vehicle from 50 yards with any amount of accuracy using a pistol, such that they wouldn't endanger any innocents?
Answer: Yes it is possible, but its risky and requires a certain level of skill and confidence. Taking this kind of action should only be done as a last resort.
Running this test was a real eye-opener for me. It helped me to better understand my own personal boundaries when it comes to taking longer distance shots with a pistol. While I now know that I can do it, I also now realize what it takes to make effective hits.
I would encourage anyone else interested in his topic to try it out for yourself next time you're at the range. While I pray that none of us ever have to face such a scenario, knowing that you have the ability to potentially change the outcome of stressful events is a big part of the self-defense picture.
I welcome any comments, questions, or criticisms!
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