Could an LTCH holder have done anything to lessen the damage caused in Colorado?

[kazaam]

Realistically, could anyone have done anything? Let's say the theater allowed people to carry...would it have mattered against a person with a ballistic helmet, neck guard, body armor, groin guard, and ballistic leggings?

I saw people debating about this in another forum and I'd like to see what you guys have to say. Some pointed to the West Hollywood shootout in 1997 to say a person who carried would be almost completely ineffective.

 

[BlueEagle]

COULD someone? Yes; it is entirely possible and plausible that some amount of help could have been given in the situation by a licensed carrier.

Likely? Probably not...in a crowded smoke-filled theater in the dark, it would be difficult to identify a target and make a safe shot...and even such a shot would only be hitting body armor, so would do negligible damage. The only hope would be to hit an unarmored part or to hit him consistently enough to keep him reeling even in body armor long enough for you, (or someone else,) to get to him and take him down.

 

[bullfrog4ever]

Realistically, its all situation dependent. The fact that he popped CS or OC canisters, with all the smoke clouding up and people running in a mass panic, you would have to make a command decision.

IF you were able to get to the right position, proper cover/concealment.
IF you were able to get a clear shot, realizing that he's wearing protection and no innocent people in the way.
IF you were able to withstand the effects of the CS or OC canister.
IF you had a proper light, weapon or handheld, to properly ID/distract him.
IF you were able to do all of this without being trampled.

Then, Yes, a LTCH holder could make a valid attempt to stop this incident. But there are so many factors, it's hard to tell what anybody would do. Except for maybe a combat veteran, who has already trained in these scenarios and/or been shot at. I would like to think that a LTCH holder could have make a difference and rise to the occasion, but under times of extreme stress, we all default to our highest level of training.

How many of us have been under the effects of CS/OC canisters? It gets hard to get a clear shot with tears in your eyes, snot dripping down your nose and alot of coughing. How many of us train under conditions this extreme?

I'm not trying to put any of us sheepdogs down, just pointing that there were so many variables and the probability of an innocent person getting caught in the crossfire of your weapon is extremely high as well. But, just having a LTCH holder there, increases the odds that there wouldn't be as many casualities.

 

[kazaam]

That gives me a lot to think about, thanks. Didn't really think of it like that before.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'd rather take the chance of "might" rather than "none"

 

[NolaMan61]

Nope.

1.) Dark theater.
2.)Shooter entering through emergency exit.
3.)Surrounded by none combatants in a relaxed and later startled posture.

There is just not much room for a realistic scenario where a firearms carrier could ahve done much good in such a situation.

 

[Miketodd]

Lets see where this one goes...

 

[bullfrog4ever]

I'd rather take the chance of "might" rather than "none"

Agreed, as would I.

But I would also need to take this into account, Am I going to do more damage and hurt more innocent people inadvertently? Will the witnesses consider me to be with this bad guy because I pull out my gun and in the mass panic they don't realize I'm trying to help? Can I protect my Wife/Kids/Siblings adequetly if I stay to fight?
(Don't be like the guy who literally dropped his baby and left his fiancee as he ran away and even leaving in the car. Left his child and fiancee to fend for themselves)
To many factors, but would be a great training scenario to discuss and train over.

I would like to think of how it would go down if I or another LTCH holder was there, but I also don't want to get delusions of grandeur about how I or anyone else would react in this situation.

There's hundreds of hypotheticals for this scenario.


Story of the guy dropping his baby and ditching his fiancee:
Couple in Colo. Theater Shooting Escape With Baby and Toddler in Tow - Yahoo! News

 

[dukeboy_318]

There's hundreds of hypotheticals for this scenario.

Exactly, with all the facts still coming in yet, its hard to say what could of made a difference. However, I think someone returning fire would of made him give up and run. My reasons for this thinking is that after he was done doing this, he went and sat in his car and waited for police to arrive to arrest him and then volunteered that he had booby trapped his apartment. There was no big police/suspect shoot out, or even a struggle from all reports.

To me, that sounds like a man who didn't want a fight, and only wanted to inflict pain on those who were less able to defend themselves. So if someone had managed to fire back, i think he'd ran away, even in body armor, I think the body armor being worn was for the sheer chance of getting shot back at and because it relates somewhat to the character in the movie, who pulls a similar stunt(according to resources, ive not actually seen it)

 

[bingley]

Will the witnesses consider me to be with this bad guy because I pull out my gun and in the mass panic they don't realize I'm trying to help?

Witnesses? How about fellow CC guy trying to take down the bad guy, whom he/she hasn't successfully identified yet? For that matter, are you sure you've identified the bad guy correctly?

 

[dukeboy_318]

Witnesses? How about fellow CC guy trying to take down the bad guy, whom he/she hasn't successfully identified yet? For that matter, are you sure you've identified the bad guy correctly?

Welcome to the Fog of War, some many scenarios to play out

 

[bullfrog4ever]

Witnesses? How about fellow CC guy trying to take down the bad guy, whom he/she hasn't successfully identified yet? For that matter, are you sure you've identified the bad guy correctly?

Well, my earlier post of IF's, I do state that you have to ID him. Without a proper ID of the BG, you've just opened yourself into a world a sh*t if you're wrong.

But, if I see shots killing multiple innocent people from an up-armored guy, common sense would dictate that he is more than likely the BG. Common sense would also dictate that if I spot another CC'er shoting at the up-armored BG, that guy is on my side. But, does he realize I'm on his side??? Hmm, Good question.

As to the witnesses, If they see the up-armored BG shooting everyone, and then I or another CC'er pull out our weapons to eliminate the threat, Do they know I'm a GG? Or do they think I'm with the BG and trying to kill them as well? Who knows? With all of the crap going on, no body knows what really would of happened. Everything is hypothetical.

You also bring up a great point of another CC'er. How many of us train with the notion that there may be another CC'er doing the exact same thing as you? Or misidentify you as a BG?

Again, too many hypothetical scenarios. But I believe this brings up a major training deficit that many of us may have.

 

[JimmyR]

I think the best answer to the OP's poll question, is yes, could an LTCH lessen the damage. I think, and it has been played out in the discussion, that the degree of harm lessened is almost imposible to determine, and that the likelihood of creating further damage is almost just as likely.

 

[bingley]

Again, too many hypothetical scenarios. But I believe this brings up a major training deficit that many of us may have.

I feel this incident was beyond the limit of what the average armed citizen can handle. Sometimes you get outgunned.

In terms of training, do we know how to cooperate with other GGs? This seems to be a big can of worms:

1. How do I know that he's a GG, and not the perp's accomplice?

2. Let's say I recognize him from the gun club and decide to trust him. Our civilian training doesn't involve small group tactics. (It seems that team work courses generally require military/police ID.) But maybe that won't matter because we won't be able to see a damn thing through the CS gas.

 

[Drakkule]

I would rather have the option of shooting back, then setting there waiting to be shot. Also, everyone stated they crawled out, or hit the ground, the guy standing up shooting should be easy to identify. I would find the best cover i could, and return fire.

 

[handgun]

As i said to a family member about this today. I rather have a fighting chance than none what so ever. I am not trying to be captain save a degenerate breathing my air.. I am not! I am not married, I have no children.. I only care about myself.. and exiting a bad situation as quickly as possible.. Sure maybe..

Its hard saying, but you bet your ass i would have returned fire if i wasn't dead from being caught un expectedly.. I would have also tried to get the hell out of there.

make my day.. We can talk all day long about should have could have etc.. But bottom line is..

the world will not know because there was not a zimmerman there to save the theatre..

 

[ggglobert9]

FN 5.7x28 Pistol...Lights out on BG. You might be surprised how many are out there?

 

[handgun]

FN 5.7x28 Pistol...Lights out on BG. You might be surprised how many are out there?

odd round, expensive gun.. I like your thinking!!!!

So true.. Maybe not lights out but right through that vest!

 

[Bunnykid68]

First rule in a gun fight, have a gun. There were 300 people there that brought popcorn to a battlezone

 

[Cheeseburger]

In one report a woman said he walked right past her. Imagine if she had a gun..... point blank range.... The way they said he walked through the theater he was not expecting resistance, this was a power trip to him. He wanted to play the part of the "Joker" and relive a scene from the comic books. Between the apartment and the theater it was a giant look at me situation. He studied human behavior in school and planned this like a large gross, sick, experiment. The media should not even report these individuals names. Like Suzanna Gratia Hupp (Luby massacre) says, using these individuals names only gives them the attention they seek.