Asking for your help!

[Bluehazemay]

Well after many phones calls and verification I was able to get my issue resolved with NICS, With this excitement I went for my permit and payed the $125 for the lifetime.

Now here is where I need your help guys, I have been reading this forum for awhile and have enjoyed quite a few topics, One being how our 2A rights are possibly infringed, now in truth this could go both ways but in truth I agree but then again I understand.

Now back when I was 19 I got the charge class A misdomeanor Handgun with out a permit. Now this was when I was unsure of the law and I need to go to the range to try out my new Glock 32 that I received from a family member as a gift. So of course I called the police deparment and asked them what all was needed and this is what was stated, The ammo and gun need to be seperate and that was all. So of course I put a trigger lock on the gun along with a barrel lock and locked the gun inside the middle console ( bad IDEA ) and locked the ammo and empty clips in glove box. I was not able to use my trunk as it had wet fiber glass and need time to dry. Well to move this along I was pulled over near clermont for 35 in a 30 and I did explain to the officer that I had the gun and I was heading to the range, he this asked for my LTCH, I explained I jsut received the gun and that I followed all the purcautions of locking up the gun for the transfer to the range because I did not have my LTCH and that this was what the police deparment explained I needed to do. Next thing you know I was arrested, and charged.

Now comes the part that can help!

This was back in 2006 so its been about 3 years, I completed my probation for the charge, allowed them to destroy the gun, Now this charge does not hold you from owning and gun but carrying I came to find out was another story! When I applied for my permit a couple days ago I kept reading over the laws to find out if that charge will have an effect. Now here is why! ----- To remove the charge from my record I needed to obtain my permit that was a order from the judge because I had no previous back ground and I think he understood this was a little out of hand. So after reading for 2 hours a night for a week, I noticed something

The term "proper person" includes a person:

• Who is 18 and has not been convicted of a crime which carries a sentence in excess of one year.
• Who is not a drug or alcohol abuser, does not have a reputation or propensity for violence or instability.
• Who has not made a false statement of material fact on his application.
• Does not have a conviction for resisting law enforcement or of violating Indiana's weapon laws within five years of the application.
• Does not have an adjudication as a delinquent child for an act that would be a felony if committed by an adult if the applicant is less that 23.

An arrest for a Class A or Class B felony, or other felony that was committed while armed or involved violence, may be used to deny a license even if there was no conviction, if the court has found probable cause to believe that the person committed the offense. Every initial application will be granted or rejected within sixty days. Current licenses are valid for four years from the date of Issuance. Indiana also offers lifetime permits.


Now this made me wonder some, my small charge was only 3 years old and in truth it did violate the indiana gun law. Now came the time to call ISP gun divison, After speaking with them for 30 minutes I was directed to the super attendent, Now there was no arguement and everyone was very friendly but when I mentioned all of this to them they themselves where unsure if that would cause a Denied permit. After speaking with the super attendent even he himself was unsure due to how the law was worded.

Now im not a lawyer but if I read this correctly it will be denied. Now this is what could help, it was explained if it was denied you can appeal it, the super attendent said it would be a good case as the sense you need the permit to remove the charge but the indiana law restricts that for another 2 years. Now there is a chance it will be approved so im not sure if I have to appeal it.

Now it comes to if I have to appeal this I would like to get some ideas, how would you all would present yourself? What would you would use to help your case? Would you bring up that you feel your 2A are infringed?

Now I know some of you may tell me to get over it you screwed up. You have the right to your own opinion and I will respect that. But understand that you WILL make mistakes in life and you will pay for them, which I have served my time and completed.

If anyone has any questions please feel free to ask! I looking to use this problem to my advantage and possibly change something. Now will it happen probley not, but is it possible YES.

Thank you all for your help it is grealty appreciated!

 

[CarmelHP]

I thought that if a cop told you it and you travelled to the range with the gun and ammo separate then it was perfectly legal.

You mean it's not? Maybe your story will end the incessant arguing over whether you need a license to go to the range but I fear it will not.

An appeal would go to an ALJ who would be bound by the statute. I think the ALJ would rule against you. It does not matter the equity of your case, your time to argue that was at your criminal trial. The ALJ must go by the law, the legislature made a bright line pronouncement, 5 years. It's less than 5 years, therefore, you are legally barred by the explicit wording of the law.

 

[Bluehazemay]

I thought that if a cop told you it and you travelled to the range with the gun and ammo separate then it was perfectly legal.

You mean it's not? Maybe your story will end the incessant arguing over whether you need a license to go to the range but I fear it will not.

An appeal would go to an ALJ who would be bound by the statute. I think the ALJ would rule against you. It does not matter the equity of your case, your time to argue that was at your criminal trial. The ALJ must go by the law, the legislature made a bright line pronouncement, 5 years. It's less than 5 years, therefore, you are legally barred by the explicit wording of the law.

Yes you are correct, and I agree, now from what I found out about my case is that you DO NEED A LTCH to trasnfer a HANDGUN to a range.

Now as stated the appeal may go as you stated but this may be the open door to have something changed or possibly get the word further out.

Could this possibly go in my favor, yes and no. Has a permit been approved after and appeal yes. After speaking with the super attendent it was explained the appeals is there to determine if you are a PROPER PERSON. If you express that you are a proper person there is a good chance of the appeal to be approved, the Super attendent also explained this would be a great case as it has been brought before and people have won without lawyer assistance due to the person was able to prove they were a PROPER PERSON.

Now is the question if I should use this to explain the 2A and how LTCH conflicts and how the indiana law conflicts with the 2A.


Any other ideas?

 

[Scutter01]

Oh, you know I'm adding your personal experience to the FAQ. This question has been argued ad nauseum on INGO and now we have case law to back it up.

 

[Sureshot129]

There is a saying that "any man that represents himself has a fool for a client". That said, I understand that money nowadays money IS TIGHT but you might waste more money going to court on your own. If someone here could recommend a lawer or you found one to talk about your case with before going to court might save you time and money. Also I think you meant Superintendent Whitesell not super attendant.

 

[Blue Tile Spook]

I thought that if a cop told you it and you travelled to the range with the gun and ammo separate then it was perfectly legal.

You mean it's not? Maybe your story will end the incessant arguing over whether you need a license to go to the range but I fear it will not.

QFT and FTW!

Somebody PLEASE bookmark this thread!

ETA: I just saw what Scutter posted. Thanks, Scutter!

 

[Bluehazemay]

My apologies for the miss spelling I was in a rush due to I am currently at work.

I am also glad this information is helpful, anything I can provide to the INGO community I am more then happy to.

Now the appeals does not cost anything and you want to know the best part, If the appeal is approved you keep your $125 that you paid and you still get the permit and there is not cost to do the appeal.

Now as for obtaining a lawyer I have contacted a few and I am contacting more on lunch. Suprisingly ALL of them agreed I had a case and advised that this could go beyond a small court room. When I asked why it was explained from one of them that you have a RIGHT due to 2A, and this could be the case to change certain laws that affect that. Now could it be possible? Yes and No. Would I take a lawyer with me to the appeals? If I see it will be needed then yes. But again that is why I would like all of you involved to see what you thought.

Now I know the information I provided was personal but I saw a chance to assist a great community and possibly make a change. As they saw you may have one the battle but not the war, but with many the war can end!

Again if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask.

 

[CarmelHP]

Are appeals won? Sure. But, in your case, there is no wiggle room, there is a specific statutory prohibition. Could the ALJ rule contrary to law, I suppose, he might think you're pretty or something. If the ALJ rules according to law, you lose. I don't think the 2A argument will get you anywhere. You were convicted of a crime. No court has said that those convicted of specific offenses couldn't be denied ownership, let alone carry.

Yes you are correct, and I agree, now from what I found out about my case is that you DO NEED A LTCH to trasnfer a HANDGUN to a range.

Now as stated the appeal may go as you stated but this may be the open door to have something changed or possibly get the word further out.

Could this possibly go in my favor, yes and no. Has a permit been approved after and appeal yes. After speaking with the super attendent it was explained the appeals is there to determine if you are a PROPER PERSON. If you express that you are a proper person there is a good chance of the appeal to be approved, the Super attendent also explained this would be a great case as it has been brought before and people have won without lawyer assistance due to the person was able to prove they were a PROPER PERSON.

Now is the question if I should use this to explain the 2A and how LTCH conflicts and how the indiana law conflicts with the 2A.


Any other ideas?

By the way, I'm not telling you not to appeal. I'm stating an opinion of the outcome. Anything can happen. Your application might get approved. The ISP may not oppose the granting at the appeals hearing and present no evidence. The ALJ, as stated, might think you're pretty. It's a crap shoot. By the way, it's Superintendent. Let us know how it all goes.

 

[BloodEclipse]

So of course I called the police deparment and asked them what all was needed and this is what was stated, The ammo and gun need to be seperate and that was all. So of course I put a trigger lock on the gun along with a barrel lock and locked the gun inside the middle console ( bad IDEA ) and locked the ammo and empty clips in glove box.

IANAL but if this is accurate then the fact it was LOCKED in the console with a trigger lock installed could be a good argument. You had reason to not put it in the trunk and you did lock it up seperate from the ammo and magazines so it was not readily accessible.
I think the initial arrest was wrong and based on that you should be allowed to get your LTCH.

 

[Bluehazemay]

Are appeals won? Sure. But, in your case, there is no wiggle room, there is a specific statutory prohibition. Could the ALJ rule contrary to law, I suppose, he might think you're pretty or something. If the ALJ rules according to law, you lose. I don't think the 2A argument will get you anywhere. You were convicted of a crime. No court has said that those convicted of specific offenses couldn't be denied ownership, let alone carry.



By the way, I'm not telling you not to appeal. Anything can happen. Your application might get approved. The ISP may not oppose the granting at the appeals hearing and present no evidence. The ALJ, as stated, might think you're pretty. It's a crap shoot. By the way, it's Superintendent.

My apologies if my state ment came out wrong or against you, that was not my intention at all.

Now I understand this can go either way but I am also doing this to provide experince and to see if a change could be made. You never know until try and I much rather live with the fact that I attempted to make a change.

Now am I doing this to make myself look "pretty" no, not at all, im doing this to possible change was has been affecting gun owners or atleast open the door for our current and future gun owners to where the rights will be no longer infringed. Now again some of you may feel this is a long shot but in truth worse comes to worse, they denie it and tell me to apply again after 2 more years no pain no foul.

 

[Bluehazemay]

IANAL but if this is accurate then the fact it was LOCKED in the console with a trigger lock installed could be a good argument. You had reason to not put it in the trunk and you did lock it up seperate from the ammo and magazines so it was not readily accessible.
I think the initial arrest was wrong and based on that you should be allowed to get your LTCH.

That is the same point of view as I see but I also see the laws point of view as it was still illegal. That is why I am persueing this, as there is a POTENTIAL conflict and possible chance for change.

 

[kludge]

Just goes to show that cops don't know the law... I can't tell you how many times I've heard of people calling the police to ask this question and they say it's OK to lock it in the trunk.

IT'S ONLY OK IF YOU ARE MOVING, OR TAKING THE GUN FOR REPAIR, OR YOU JUST BOUGHT THE GUN AND YOU'RE TAKING IT HOME/FIXED PLACE OF BUSINESS!

Sorry, capshot, but you are probably going to get denied for your LTCH.

 

[Bluehazemay]

Just goes to show that cops don't know the law... I can't tell you how many times I've heard of people calling the police to ask this question and they say it's OK to lock it in the trunk.

IT'S ONLY OK IF YOU ARE MOVING, OR TAKING THE GUN FOR REPAIR, OR YOU JUST BOUGHT THE GUN AND YOU'RE TAKING IT HOME/FIXED PLACE OF BUSINESS!

Sorry, capshot, but you are probably going to get denied for your LTCH.

In truth it wasnt right but was still the law, and getting denied is very possible, and if I get denied in the appeals well to put it simple thats life, but I can make one promise I will put up a true american fight. Im working over time as much as possible to pay for the best lawyer if it is needed, and another way to look is that its just 2 more years, Now if it comes down to where its just 2 more years I will accept it as it was the law but the chance for possible change or atleast possible approvel is still there, again to me its worth a try, and in truth the only issue I will have if I lose is a 2 year wait.

 

[Soundslikejosh]

Any other ideas?

Don't tell people about guns in your car unless absolutely necessary. I am presuming you volunteered, and I apologize if that's incorrect. Just another example of how people who are not truly criminal get themselves into a heap of **** that they didn't even expect. Yes, he was breaking a law. Did he know? No. Did he have malicious intent? No. Did he screw himself? Yes.

Don't expose yourself to unnecessary risk!

I mean this to be friendly, but we've had this argument too many times and people don't seem to get it.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Don't expose yourself to unnecessary risk!

YouTube - Dont Talk to Police

Does anyone know every law and what you could be admitting?

 

[MACHINEGUN]

I'd like to hear an update on this thread.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Yes you are correct, and I agree, now from what I found out about my case is that you DO NEED A LTCH to trasnfer a HANDGUN to a range.

Now as stated the appeal may go as you stated but this may be the open door to have something changed or possibly get the word further out.

Could this possibly go in my favor, yes and no. Has a permit been approved after and appeal yes. After speaking with the super attendent it was explained the appeals is there to determine if you are a PROPER PERSON. If you express that you are a proper person there is a good chance of the appeal to be approved, the Super attendent also explained this would be a great case as it has been brought before and people have won without lawyer assistance due to the person was able to prove they were a PROPER PERSON.

Now is the question if I should use this to explain the 2A and how LTCH conflicts and how the indiana law conflicts with the 2A.


Any other ideas?

To which range were you going? If that range also had a gunsmith on duty, technically you were going to a place of repair, and that IS legal, in which case you should never have been convicted in the first place.

IF this is true, I would make that argument, but in no event should you take this as any suggestion on my part that you should be anything less than 100% truthful. Barring that or one of the other VERY narrow exemptions, I would say that you should expect to get some money back very soon... meaning your LTCH was denied and a portion of your fees has been refunded.

Good luck, and as always,

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

Just goes to show that cops don't know the law... I can't tell you how many times I've heard of people calling the police to ask this question and they say it's OK to lock it in the trunk.

IT'S ONLY OK IF YOU ARE MOVING, OR TAKING THE GUN FOR REPAIR, OR YOU JUST BOUGHT THE GUN AND YOU'RE TAKING IT HOME/FIXED PLACE OF BUSINESS!

Sorry, capshot, but you are probably going to get denied for your LTCH.

Kludge, no disrespect intended, but the law does not specify that he must be taking the gun in to BE repaired, only that he be taking it to a place OF repair. (and no, to the INGO member "repair", that does not mean taking it to your house! ) This is a bit of nit-picking and hair-splitting... but the letter of the law will be held to when it is in the interest of the state... so it should similarly be held in the interest of the citizen, otherwise Justice is not blind, merely mute.

IMHO, YMMV.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Bill of Rights]

OK... necropost... But I'm glad I answered anyway. The "place of repair" exception was being missed.

Do carry on... don't mind me.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[j706]

This guy was stopped for 35 in a 30? And then arrested for having a locked up handgun that had a lock on the gun itself? Unreal IMO!! Not doubting his story but jeezzz! I don't know anyone who stops cars for 5 over. I also don't know of anyone who would have made that chicken poo arrest. Unreal!!