Accidental Discharge when OC/CC?

[thompal]

Originally Posted by Agent 007

Yeah, because negligent discharges are IMPOSSIBLE with a manual safety equipped pistol. The Titanic is unsinkable, too.

So what you are saying is that gun owners are too stupid to own and carry pistols and revolvers without manual safeties, since they are unsafe and inevitably cause negligent discharges, right? Too much of a risk? Sounds like you'd be better off in California, where the benevolent liberal lawmakers protect you from yourself by mandating magazine disconnects and safety switches to protect you and others from yourself. After all, who knows more about gun safety than Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi? Remember, it's for the children.

Amazing that I've been carrying revolvers and pistols without manual safeties for all these years and have never had a negligent discharge.

Kinda makes me feel like Riverdancing.

YouTube - River Dancing Irish Monkeys (Remix)....

Jeeez. Chill out. I'm just saying that if you decide to carry a pistol that has a greater chance of an AD than something like a 1911, then if you DO have one, you stand a good chance of being eaten alive in court. And you are naive if you think that the stats of the COPS who have had ADs with non-safety handguns won't be introduced against you.

I'm not advocating more government involvement, I'm just not willing to increase the risk to innocents around me simply due to my choice of handgun. If YOU are willing to risk the lives of kids around you simply because you have to have the latest hi-speed/lo-drag trendy pistol, then maybe you should re-evaluate the reason you carry one at all.

Alternatively, if you can show me stats that prove that safety-less handguns have NO more incidents (as in ZERO) of ADs, then I will re-consider my opinion (an NO, Glock marketing hype does not count).

[Agent 007]

Originally Posted by thompal

Jeeez. Chill out. I'm just saying that if you decide to carry a pistol that has a greater chance of an AD than something like a 1911, then if you DO have one, you stand a good chance of being eaten alive in court. And you are naive if you think that the stats of the COPS who have had ADs with non-safety handguns won't be introduced against you.

I'm not advocating more government involvement, I'm just not willing to increase the risk to innocents around me simply due to my choice of handgun. If YOU are willing to risk the lives of kids around you simply because you have to have the latest hi-speed/lo-drag trendy pistol, then maybe you should re-evaluate the reason you carry one at all.

Alternatively, if you can show me stats that prove that safety-less handguns have NO more incidents (as in ZERO) of ADs, then I will re-consider my opinion (an NO, Glock marketing hype does not count).

Ah....1911 vs. Glock. I knew it.

You basically post that people who carry pistols without manual safeties are irresponsible *******es who will eventually kill a child because of their choice of pistols, and you tell ME to chill out?

The reason I carry a gun is to protect myself and others from criminal attack. In addition, I carry an "unsafe" Glock every day in the performance of my duties. I carry a gun for a living. Do you? I've carried Glocks since they were introduced in the US. I also regularly carry a Kahr and am breaking in an M&P 45, both without safety switches, pads, seatbelts or helmets.

Over thousands of rounds fired and thousands of hours spent carrying and handling a gun, I have NEVER had a negligent discharge. You keep saying "accidental" discharge. There is no such thing, unless it is attributable to a mechanical failure of the weapon. A person's safety is between their ears, and if that's lacking, then it is YOU who need to evaluate your carrying of a pistol, not me. If your BEHAVIOR increases the risk of harming those around you, then YOU need to take a look in the mirror. Pistols don't go off by themselves.

You don't trust yourself without a manual safety? Fine. No one knows your competence level better than yourself. Please continue to carry a pistol with a manual safety, and may I suggest you carry without a round in the chamber? That cuts the risk of killing everyone around you to just about zero, and should make you sleep soundly at night, without living your life in fear of the ambulance chasers.

I won't say that the 1911 is a bad choice for a carry pistol. I prefer other platforms, but that is irrelevant to this discussion. If you can master it, and you trust it, then that is what you should carry. But it was designed for war, not civilian personal defense or police work. A 1911 with a safety engaged is worthless, and once you disengage the safety in a stressful encounter, then a 1911 is far more likely to accidentally discharge than my Glock with its 8 lb connector and internal safeties. I seriously doubt that your 1911 trigger is an 8 lb pull...probably more like a short, light and crisp 4 lbs or so. Isn't that one of the main reasons for the 1911 hype...that crisp, light trigger? Of course, it won't go off if you don't pull the trigger...but under YOUR line of thinking, the 1911 is now the more dangerous pistol.

I have all the stats I need. Zero NDs in my experience. Your mileage may vary. Please don't project your inadequacies on other people. Your "reasoning" is the type of hyperbole that is the FOUNDATION of gun control arguments. "People can't be trusted" is the mantra of the Brady bunch. (Handgun Control, Inc., not the lovable family from the 70's who knew they had much more than a hunch.)

You can continue to cite imaginary "bogeyman" lawyers in your fantasy trial, but the fact of the matter is, if my carelessness is the cause of someone else's injury or death, I will take responsibility for my actions. I won't get "eaten alive" by anybody. If I am responsible, I will take my medicine. Quaint idea in this day and age, I know...but there it is.

And by the way....it's hard to take anyone seriously when they carry a 1911 and mock OTHER gun types for being "hi speed/low drag trendy pistols." All the while, fawning over your Super Gold Cup Match Tactical Operator Desert Warrior Combat Elite Champion Ultra Carry Defender SWAT SIS Supergrade Professional CQB Custom Thunder Ranch Nighthawk non-trendy, non-high speed/low drag pistol.

Nothing says "trendy" like a plain old Glock. Now with 10% more tacticool!

[melensdad]

Originally Posted by jstwrit

There are many opinions on how to carry... chambered "one in the pipe" or unchambered. I am wondering if anyone knows of or has had an accidental discharge while carrying chambered. I could see a discharge while moving a weapon in/out of proper holstering, but it just firing is what I'm after.

First off, I've been carrying on and off for roughly 20 years, ALWAYS with a bullet in the chamber. Started out carrying a S&W SA/DA pistol, switched over to a 1911 pattern gun and have been carrying a 1911 for roughly 15 years, always "cocked & locked."

Secondly, keep your finger off the trigger when taking the gun out of the holster and it will not fire. If I have to take my gun out of my holster while going to the bathroom or something like that then I don't put my finger on the trigger. Its NEVER been a problem.

Originally Posted by jstwrit

My Walther PPS has a Glock style safety. It seems I read alot of should I?/shouldn't I? questions when IMO there just aren't enough accidentals to justify not carrying chambered. Thoughts???

With the PPS or the Glock the only safe way to carry is in a holster. Never open pocket or bag (purse) carry. No, there is no problem with AD/ND if you carry properly and keep your finger off the trigger.

[thompal]

Originally Posted by melensdad

First off, I've been carrying on and off for roughly 20 years, ALWAYS with a bullet in the chamber. Started out carrying a S&W SA/DA pistol, switched over to a 1911 pattern gun and have been carrying a 1911 for roughly 15 years, always "cocked & locked."

I've carried a 1911A1for almost 30 years, locked and loaded. Never had a problem. The new "decockers" make me REALLY nervous. I can too easily visualize which parts need to fail just that once to have an AD.

The only AD I've had was with a late 30's Mauser. I was showing someone the mechanics of the safety, had it pointed downrange, and pulled the trigger. Safety worked fine. So, I prepared to shoot, shouldered it, and as soon as a flipped the safety lever, it discharged. Since I didn't have it pulled firmly into my shoulder yet, it left a heck of a bruise.

[Prometheus]

I'm not aware of a 'accidental discharge' ever happening with a modern firearm.

There are plenty of NEGLIGENT discharges.

No, I've never had a ND while carrying openly or concealed.

I've only had one ND and it was at a range and the rifle was pointed down range. Proper muzzle awareness sent the round harmless into the berm, while the range was still hot. Strangest thing that's ever happened to me. My AK went 'click', I removed the mag, racked the bolt to check the chamber and pulled the trigger to drop the hammer before putting it up... BANG! I still have no idea how a round got in the chamber. As I said, I'm the only one who knew it since the range was hot. Really doubled my attention to checking AND keeping the muzzle in the proper direction.

[Disposable Heart]

You aint in Israel, carry one in the pipe.

The key here is what Prometheus said: HUGE difference between accidents and negligence. Always test the gun's safeties (with it unloaded) before carrying the gun (not necessarily every time, but after each shooting session) and always have a holster designed for the weapon (as an improper one can cause an ND).

Dont horse with it or "show everyone" the gun and keep safety a priority!

[SMiller]

I try to make sure my untucked shirt doesn't go into my holster with my hot M+P, it could pull the trigger and pop a hole in the ground, I really don't want that attention.

[kingnereli]

Agent 007,

Are you really saying a safety equipped gun is just as likely to be negligently discharged as one without? Isn't the whole point of a safety to be another layer of, you guessed it, safety. While the amount of disparity is debatable, it is more likely to snag the trigger if the gun has no safety. The safety absent gun is also less forgiving to finger placement errors. It is great that you have never had a ND. As great as it is it doesn't change the likelihood. Nobody had a ND till their first one. Experiential evidence only goes so far. A smart man learns from his own mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

You set up a straw man argument in regards to the 1911. If you carried one you would know that the safety doesn't come off until it is time to fire. That may be strait from the holster or it may not. It is a training issue. So your scenario of pointing a gun with a 4 pound trigger and inactive safety is mute. The safety will be engaged till I WANT to fire. In this condition I could hit my 4 pound trigger with a hammer and it will not fire. You have an 8 pound trigger. That's fantastic. It also does little to nothing in terms of safety. Not only is your trigger less safe to some arguable degree it is also a nasty 8 pound trigger.

I fully understand the appeal of a gun with no safeties. However, I don't understand the attitude that a manual safety detracts in any way from a firearms design. I bet your shotguns/rifles have safeties. What is so different about pistol that it doesn't require a safety? I guess all I am asking is whether or not you are willing to admit that the presence of a manual safety does deter negligence to some degree.

[kludge]

99.999999999% of the time that a gun fires the trigger was depressed.

People are human. They forget to put the safety on. They forget to take it off.

I hate safties for one reason. They give people an excuse to handle guns in an unsafe manner:

"Please watch your muzzle, sir."
"Don't worry the safety is on." or "It's not loaded."

Top two excuses for negligent behavior:

"I thought the safety was on." "I didn't know it was loaded."

Yes it is a layer of protection, but I wish there was different name for it.

[Agent 007]

Kingnereli, I'd like to debate...but I've got a garage sale to help the wife with today. I've said quite a bit on the subject, and I pretty much agree with Kludge's take on the matter. I think that a manual safety can lull a person into a false sense of security. And the same inattention to detail that can go hand in hand with a relaxed state of mind can lead to a disactivated safety and a negligent discharge.

Suffice it to say that my whole point is that safety is a HUMAN trait, not something that can be assigned to a mechanical object. Eternal vigilance is not only the price of freedom, but also the responsibility of those who choose to carry loaded firearms. Long guns are not comparable to handguns, as they are deployed in different manners. The long gun is carried openly and is indeed more likely to have a foreign object enter the trigger guard and cause an unintentional discharge without the benefit of a mechanical safety. The handgun is to be kept holstered, with the trigger guard covered and free of obstructions, until ready to be deployed...and safely reholstered once the threat has passed.

The dingleberries that shoot their toodles off with semiauto pistols are from the same stock and lazy mindset of those that had NDs with 12 lb S&W model 10 triggers back in the day. "Likelihood" is just another word for statistics, and we all know that there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. You are only as likely to do something as you allow.

I will concur that, yes, if you are sloppy in your gun handling, a manual safety may save your bacon one day. In the real world of lethal force encounters, it may also be the split second delay that gets you shot. I need NO extra step between drawing my weapon and employing deadly force. I'll continue to worry more about whether my gun will go off when I want it to, rather than worrying about whether it will go off when I don't want it to. Mindset is the key.

I'll note that among police officers, ND's are still fairly rare...even given the fact that most police officers are not really gun enthusiasts. If it was an issue, every PD in the US would have pistols with manual safeties. The fact of the matter is, almost no agencies use pistols with safeties anymore. The vast majority use a striker fired design, a light DAO design like Sig DAK or HK LEM, or a DA/SA decocker design like the P22x series or USP. And these are armed professionals who actually point their pistols at people on a regular basis out of necessity (unfortunately) and handle them every day. NDs are rare. Why? Because it's all about mindset and training.

I really gotta go....my wife doesn't have a safety either, and unlike my Glock, M&P or Kahr, she WILL go off despite my best efforts.

Later.....