OCing and that Harvard Professor....

[airmotive]

So some of the threads on here about OCing have been both entertaining and informative. So have some of the news stories about the arrest of Professor Gates out there in Mass.

And this got me to thinking...

Most of us would agree that the officer was correct in arresting Mr. Gates for 'disorderly conduct in such a way as to cause alarm to the public' (or something to that effect - I'm working from memory of the arrest paperwork).

Mr Gates did, afterall, do just that. Of course, he was causing alarm to the public by exercising his 1st amendment rights, and was disorderly after refusing the officer's order to stop.

With that experience now in our back pocket...

An officer asks you to untuck your shirt to cover your OC'ed weapon, because he's concerned your firearm will cause alarm to the public.
You see where I'm going with this.

Is your response:
(a) "Why? Because I'm an armed man in America!!??"
(b) "Sure, no problem."
(c) "Sit down while I recite every piece of case law I know on the subject."
(d) fill in the blank....

 

[bigus_D]

Most of us would agree that the officer was correct in arresting Mr. Gates for 'disorderly conduct in such a way as to cause alarm to the public' ...

I, for one, with my media biased, extremely limited, 1000 mile view of this arrest, firmly disagree that the officer was correct in this arrest. This would be further supported by the subsequent dropping of all charges.



Anyhow, I only CC... but if stopped by law enforcement, I'd show my pink paper, ask if I'm free to go, and continue on my way... no other comments beyond, "nice weather" and "how about them colts."

I suppose if I were OCing... I'd add, "I'll take that under advisement" before asking if I'm free to go.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I, for one, with my media biased, extremely limited, 1000 mile view of this arrest, firmly disagree that the officer was correct in this arrest. This would be further supported by the subsequent dropping of all charges.

The charges were dropped by the prosecutor's office. It probably had more to do with political influence or potential bad press for the prosecutor if the case would have been allowed to proceed. You would be surprised at how many valid arrests have been made and the charges are dropped for one reason or another that have nothing to do with policy, rights, amendments, statues, etc being violated.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

`

Most of us would agree that the officer was correct in arresting Mr. Gates for 'disorderly conduct in such a way as to cause alarm to the public' 0

Ummm, no, most of us would not. There was no crime. Go read Massachusett's ancient statute. Nothing reported that could be considered a crime.

Gates got himself arrested for contempt of cop. This is why you shoud always Eddie Haskell up around the police.

he was causing alarm to the public by exercising his 1st amendment rights,

One cannot cause alarm by exercising his right to comment on police behavior. The DA knew it and this arrest is glowing with lawsuit radioactivity against the cop and the city.

Gates' problem is that he acted like an 8th grader. Why poke the bear with a stick? Geez, Gates' attorney is Ogletree of Harvard! Have him do the poking while you play the victim on television and the talk circuit.

An officer asks you to untuck your shirt to cover your OC'ed weapon, because he's concerned your firearm will cause alarm to the public.

I have no idea what this is and could really care less if people are alarmed with me exercising a civil right or my skin colour. I'm not in Massachusetts so I could care less about their law.

As someone who did have this happen to me (Wheatfield, Indiana 2003), I told the officer "no." He told me "it was the law." I asked him to get his mini code book that IPAC gives out and I could teach him a lesson for free (on a Saturday no less).

He hemmed and hawed and examined at the tile in the gas station (I had stopped for coffee). I turned and left. He told me to cover up as it would be a "good idea". I turned and waved and wished him a nice day.

I would tell the officer: "No, am I free to go?" I would then write and call the police department with a complaint.

 

[Coach]

Is there any video of the Gates arrest?

I am curious as to how this snowballed to the arrest stage. Guy is in his own house and has demonstrated it is his house. If I am the police officer I say sorry for the bother, have a good night. If I am the home owner I say that for doing your job and looking after my property have a good evening.

 

[airmotive]

`

Ummm, no, most of us would not. There was no crime. Go read Massachusett's ancient statute. Nothing reported that could be considered a crime.

Gates got himself arrested for contempt of cop. This is why you shoud always Eddie Haskell up around the police.



One cannot cause alarm by exercising his right to comment on police behavior. The DA knew it and this arrest is glowing with lawsuit radioactivity against the cop and the city.

Gates' problem is that he acted like an 8th grader. Why poke the bear with a stick? Geez, Gates' attorney is Ogletree of Harvard! Have him do the poking while you play the victim on television and the talk circuit.



I have no idea what this is and could really care less if people are alarmed with me exercising a civil right or my skin colour. I'm not in Massachusetts so I could care less about their law.

As someone who did have this happen to me (Wheatfield, Indiana 2003), I told the officer "no." He told me "it was the law." I asked him to get his mini code book that IPAC gives out and I could teach him a lesson for free (on a Saturday no less).

He hemmed and hawed and examined at the tile in the gas station (I had stopped for coffee). I turned and left. He told me to cover up as it would be a "good idea". I turned and waved and wished him a nice day.

I would tell the officer: "No, am I free to go?" I would then write and call the police department with a complaint.

A simple (a) and (c) would suffice ...but you have made good points.

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight simply because I always carry concealed. (yes, I have a concern about the outcome, but not as directly as committed OCers).

I believe the professor was arrested for (in so many words) 'causing public alarm'. Are you saying that such a charge is invalid in all cases? If there are times when 'causing public alarm' is a valid charge, why not this case?

Listening to a cop on a talk radio show this weekend, it sounded like that was the reason for asking the screaming man to come outside...once outside, he was officially 'causing public alarm', and could be arrested. There were tactical reasons to ask the professor to come outside as well (if the professor was being held against his will inside his house and unable to speak freely, the cop could discern the situation by ordering the professor to step outside). But I digress....

The point of the post is, if exercising your 1A rights can get you arrested (albeit not charged for whatever reason) for alarming the public, would an LEO's request that you cover your weapon so as not to cause public alarm be "reasonable"?
(That question wasn't directed at you Kirk, we know your answer

 

[Prometheus]

Most of us would agree that the officer was correct in arresting Mr. Gates for 'disorderly conduct in such a way as to cause alarm to the public' (or something to that effect - I'm working from memory of the arrest paperwork).

NO WAY. I don't agree with that at all. The person causing the problem, the officer(s), were causing the problem the moment they didn't leave after determining that Gates was the home owner. Everything that happened form the moment they ascertained gates was the home owner falls squarely on the shoulders of the LEOs.

Mr Gates did, afterall, do just that. Of course, he was causing alarm to the public by exercising his 1st amendment rights, and was disorderly after refusing the officer's order to stop.

He was in his own home. The officer KNEW he couldn't arrest Gates in his home for DO so the cop coaxed Gates onto the front porch where he was promptly arrested for an alleged DO.

I find it unbelievable that people on a site such as this show little to no respect for a persons porch. Private property is just that. It's time the socialists figure that out. Inside, on the porch or in the yard. At least Indiana law recognizes this in the castle doctrine.

An officer asks you to untuck your shirt to cover your OC'ed weapon, because he's concerned your firearm will cause alarm to the public.
You see where I'm going with this.

"Your concerns are noted, have a nice day." The circumstance where I would coverup would be few and far between. If threatened with arrest I'd make dang sure to get all my ducks lined up for the lawsuit.

 

[revance]

For those unsure of what happened, you should go read the arrest report.

Here are the details (and some opinion/assumptions)...

Officer shows up after neighbor reports 2 black men with backpacks forcing their way through the front door.

Officer shows up, explains he was investigating a reported possible break in, Gates BLOWS UP and continues to blow up while the officer tries to do his job. The officer appeared to handle himself quite well, except at the end (after all the police work was done) he finally told Gates he was going outside and if he had more to say he could discuss it out there. His reasoning for this in the report was that he was having difficulty relaying info over his radio with Gates yelling inside.

Gates follows him continuing to yell (things even as classless as "I'll talk to yo mama outside!"). Officer gets part way off the property, turns around and warns him he is being disorderly and needs to stop. Gates continues to yell and scream. Officer takes out his cuffs and tells him he is being disorderly again and instructs him to stop. Gates ignores it... officer places him under arrest.

My opinion:

Gates was a jerk, plain and simple. The officer kept a level head right up to and including the point where he set Gates up for a disorderly conduct arrest. He essentially wanted some revenge on the guy for yelling, screaming, accusing him of being racist, and threatening him. So he lured him into public so he could get a disorderly conduct arrest.

The correct thing in my opinion would have been to just tell him you are done and leave. Let Gates be the one to look like a jack*ss. Gates was guilty of what he was arrested for, but the cop totally set him up for it knowing he would take his invitation and continue to yell and scream outside. The cop could have taken the high road.

The real funny part of the story...

HE WAS FORCING HIS WAY THROUGH HIS OWN FRONT DOOR BECAUSE IT WAS DAMAGED FROM A PREVIOUS BREAK IN ATTEMPT!!!!

 

[bigg cheese]

Just for the record, the individual who made the call, came out with a statement, saying there was no mention of black men. Just men.

Race Not Mentioned in Harvard Scholar 911 Call - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com


The guy won't come out of his house to to prove to the officer, who was there on a call of burglary, that he is who he says he is and that he is not under duress (gun to his head by a burglar). In a call like that for me, I hope the officer doesn't just take the word of the faceless individual shouting from inside my house.

That cop is receiving so much flak for nothing.

 

[4sarge]

Interesting poll on the Henry Louis Gates/Cambridge Police incident

Interesting poll on the Henry Louis Gates/Cambridge Police incident


From Rasmussen Reports:

The president was asked about the arrest of a prominent African-America professor at Harvard and the professor’s subsequent complaint of racial profiling. While admitting he did not know all the details and acknowledging that the professor was a personal friend, the president said the police acted “stupidly” when they arrested Henry Louis Gates.

Beneath the top line numbers is a huge gap between the way that white and black Americans view the situation.
Seventy-one percent (71%) of African-Americans say the president’s response was good or excellent, a view shared by just 22% of white Americans.


At the other extreme, 53% of white voters gave the president’s response a poor grade. Only five percent (5%) of black Americans offered such a negative response.

African-Americans, by a two-to-one margin, say the question was inappropriate. Whites are fairly evenly divided on the appropriateness of the question.

Seventy-three percent (73%) of African-American voters believe that most blacks receive unfair treatment from the police. Just 21% of white voters share that view.

Thirty-two percent (32%) of black voters say that most policemen are racist, but 52% disagree.

Among white voters, just seven percent (7%) believe that most policemen are racist and 71% say they are not.

On a partisan basis, 50% of Democrats say the president’s response was good or excellent. White Democrats are less supportive than black Democrats.

The president’s response earned a poor rating from 77% of Republicans and 52% of those not affiliated with either major party.

Liberals, by a two-to-one margin believe that most African-Americans are treated unfairly by the police. A solid plurality of unaffiliateds and a majority of Republicans disagree.

 

[AndersonIN]

Being a prior LEO something that I've read above that often is NOT taken into consideration!

Yes Gates was in his own house and he did prove that! BUT you ask the person outside because you have NO IDEA if a BG has his family in another room under duress and the homeowner is just answering to get you out of the home. You take the homeowner outside so that they can talk "in private" and not be over heard. This is what upset Mr Gates!

Both Gates and Obama PROVED themselves to be RACIST BIGOTS! You drop the charges because an STUPID President and a professor are looking ignorant to the WORLD and why drag them both threw the mud further!

 

[wally05]

EXACTLY. I think some of the posters here never read the report. The arrest was a good one whether some of you like it or not. Anyways, if he asked me to cover it up, I would just to keep the peace, but I'd also follow up later about it. As soon as the officer would leave, I'd untuck it and carry on.

For those unsure of what happened, you should go read the arrest report.

Here are the details (and some opinion/assumptions)...

Officer shows up after neighbor reports 2 black men with backpacks forcing their way through the front door.

Officer shows up, explains he was investigating a reported possible break in, Gates BLOWS UP and continues to blow up while the officer tries to do his job. The officer appeared to handle himself quite well, except at the end (after all the police work was done) he finally told Gates he was going outside and if he had more to say he could discuss it out there. His reasoning for this in the report was that he was having difficulty relaying info over his radio with Gates yelling inside.

Gates follows him continuing to yell (things even as classless as "I'll talk to yo mama outside!"). Officer gets part way off the property, turns around and warns him he is being disorderly and needs to stop. Gates continues to yell and scream. Officer takes out his cuffs and tells him he is being disorderly again and instructs him to stop. Gates ignores it... officer places him under arrest.

My opinion:

Gates was a jerk, plain and simple. The officer kept a level head right up to and including the point where he set Gates up for a disorderly conduct arrest. He essentially wanted some revenge on the guy for yelling, screaming, accusing him of being racist, and threatening him. So he lured him into public so he could get a disorderly conduct arrest.

The correct thing in my opinion would have been to just tell him you are done and leave. Let Gates be the one to look like a jack*ss. Gates was guilty of what he was arrested for, but the cop totally set him up for it knowing he would take his invitation and continue to yell and scream outside. The cop could have taken the high road.

The real funny part of the story...

HE WAS FORCING HIS WAY THROUGH HIS OWN FRONT DOOR BECAUSE IT WAS DAMAGED FROM A PREVIOUS BREAK IN ATTEMPT!!!!

 

[bigus_D]

How often does an arresting officer file an arrest report wherein the arrest is not portrayed as a good arrest? I, honestly, don't see how reading this report is going to provide me any better understanding of what actually went down.

The fact is, both parties could have (and probably should have) handled the situation differently.

 

[wally05]

How often does an arresting officer file an arrest report wherein the arrest is not portrayed as a good arrest? I, honestly, don't see how reading this report is going to provide me any better understanding of what actually went down.

The fact is, both parties could have (and probably should have) handled the situation differently.

Ummm... it's better than heresay... Falsifying a police report is a very BAD thing to get caught doing. And with all the witnesses in the area and the officer's record, I think it's safe to say that didn't happen. So, don't believe a decorated officer that tries to keep new officers from racial profiling?

I think one side could have handled it differently. The officer handled it just fine.

 

[airmotive]

I am beginning to realize that a fairly substantial portion of the membership here would find fault in an LEO's actions no matter what those actions are. Saving puppies, stopping crime, giving Hitler a wedgie, etc, etc.
It won't matter. It will be wrong/unjustified/unconstitutional, etc etc.

 

[bigus_D]

I am beginning to realize that a fairly substantial portion of the membership here would find fault in an LEO's actions no matter what those actions are. Saving puppies, stopping crime, giving Hitler a wedgie, etc, etc.
It won't matter. It will be wrong/unjustified/unconstitutional, etc etc.

I'm pretty sure it is safe to say that this particular issue falls into a category that is far more gray than black and white (no pun intended). To say otherwise is a load in my opinion.

 

[AndersonIN]

What I love is that you would think some of these morons think that the officer received a call about a break in of a house in a general neighborhood and then drove around the block until the found a house with a black man in it!!!!

They were given a specific address to go to!
A black man just happened to be in the house!

What more did you want the officer to do??? Call back to headquarters and ask for them to phone the president for permission to enter???

As for the police report it shows the officer's justification for making the arrest! His side of the story! If he lies he loses his job and goes to jail. If the racist prof. lies he goes on TV and gets to visit the President!

Seems fair to me!

 

[mrjarrell]

Hoosier native Radley Balko at Reason has a different take on the issue. Yeah, the cop was wrong, as the arrest did not rise to the level of incitement to riot (which the statute makes clear). The cop was the issue, not race or anything like it. This was a case of contempt of cop, something that's not a crime, no matter how much cops wish it was. It also points out that so-called "law and order" Conservatives are hitching their horses to the wrong buggy, yet again.

The arrest of Harvard African-American Studies Professor Henry Louis Gates has certainly got everyone talking. Unfortunately, everyone's talking about the wrong issue.
Responding to a 911 call from a woman who observed Gates prying open the door to his own home, Cambridge, Massachusetts police Sgt. James Crowley confronted Gates, and asked him to prove his residency. What happened next is disputed, but it now seems clear that Gates mistakenly presumed that Crowley had racially profiled him, and hurled a barrage of invective at Crowley in response. Crowey has since been backed up by other officers, some of them black, and it turns out he was appointed to teach a clinic on profiling by a black former Boston police commissioner.
This has given law-and-order conservatives cause to crow: A liberal academic and friend of President Barack Obama wrongly accuses a cop of racial prejudice. None of this means racial profiling doesn't exist (law-and-order types seem torn between arguing that profiling is a myth, and arguing that it works). It just means that the story in Cambridge was about something else.
The conversation we ought to be having in response to the July 16 incident and its heated aftermath isn't about race, it's about police arrest powers, and the right to criticize armed agents of the government.
By any account of what happened—Gates', Crowleys', or some version in between—Gates should never have been arrested. "Contempt of cop," as it's sometimes called, isn't a crime. Or at least it shouldn't be. It may be impolite, but mouthing off to police is protected speech, all the more so if your anger and insults are related to a perceived violation of your rights. The "disorderly conduct" charge for which Gates was arrested was intended to prevent riots, not to prevent cops from enduring insults. Crowley is owed an apology for being portrayed as a racist, but he ought to be disciplined for making a wrongful arrest.
He won't be, of course. And that's ultimately the scandal that will endure long after the political furor dies down. The power to forcibly detain a citizen is an extraordinary one. It's taken far too lightly, and is too often abused. And that abuse certainly occurs against black people, but not only against black people. American cops seem to have increasingly little tolerance for people who talk back, even merely to inquire about their rights.

Much more at the source.

 

[Joe Williams]

Is there any video of the Gates arrest?

I am curious as to how this snowballed to the arrest stage. Guy is in his own house and has demonstrated it is his house. If I am the police officer I say sorry for the bother, have a good night. If I am the home owner I say that for doing your job and looking after my property have a good evening.

Thing is, he HADN'T demonstrated it was his house, and started calling the cop a racist when said cop asked for ID. Then went outside, screaming and yelling, and acting like your average poorly raised 3 year old who's not getting his own way.

Cops cannot blow off people breaking into houses. Catching such people is kinda one of their basic functions. If you break into a house, it's hardly unreasonable for the cops to want to see ID instead of just taking the word of the person who just did the breaking!

IMHO, this snowballed into an arrest because Gates makes his living perpetuating racism, has a speaking tour about to start, and needed to generate some attention to generate max profits from said tour. It just hasn't played out the way he wanted, and now he's faced with a police officer mulling over filing a VERY winnable defamation lawsuit.

 

[wally05]

I agree somewhat that cops arrest for a lot of things these days that are not legit... but then they lose their job. THIS case was not "contempt of cop." That does happen, but this wasn't it. All Gates provided was a Harvard ID, the Sgt. then tried to call Harvard PD while Gates was freaking out. Tell you what, I'll provide a college ID for proof I own a home even though it doesn't have an address on it if you're coming to make sure the residents of the house are okay... come on guys...