Concealed Carry: Tactically Useless and Politically Shameful?

[melensdad]

I hope you can solidify my armchair logic , or change my mind here . . . so, "Why are y'all so concerned about being concealed?"

Aside from any potential tactical advantage of surprise or avoiding the dreaded gun grab, IMHO I feel concealed carry does more overall harm than good when looking at the bigger picture.

I say this for several reasons:

1) As Americans, we should be proud of our RIGHT to legally and responsibly carry. Most citizens around the world can't carry at all, and if we don't turn the tide against those Americans who find open carry to be "socially unacceptable" or "discomforting," we too soon shall join the rest of the world and you won't have to worry about concealing it. To me, concealing equates to slinking around almost shamefully, and amounts to no more than allowing the government and political correctness to subdue you to into being embarrassed that you carry. We are on the verge of no carry at all, and once they turn the corner on that, there's no going back.

2) Over 10,000 people in my county alone applied for carry permits. I would bet for most of them it's a knee-jerk reaction to our local crime scene, as well as it being their first time owning or handling a firearm. If for no other reason than I don't want a single inexperienced person who happens to have a "paper CCW" opening fire while I'm in range, these people need every opportunity we can give them to learn and discuss the seriousness of their undertaking. By openly carrying in public, we show them it's not shameful or sneaky to be armed, and for those who are interested, we get to discuss guns (yeah!) and educate them about ownership. Every wonder why people who conceal feel compelled to tell someone they see openly carrying that they too are carrying? It's our duty to inform and educate others about why we do, and how they too can learn to defend themselves.

3) From the crime reports we hear about daily in our local news, it's apparent that the thugs we have here living here have zero regard for human life. They'd just as soon kill you for fun as they would take your wallet. They're also not too bright to begin with. That being said, if they walk into a store and see five people and no guns, either they figure, "No one's armed" or "Maybe 2 out of 5 are armed" and they act, figuring they'll take their chances. In most cases, they're right - either the shoppers are not armed, or if they are the concealed carriers are sure keeping their guns hidden since all we hear around here is how the BG's get away all the time. Conversely, if the BG walks into to a store and sees three armed people, he's likely to choose easier game. If he does engage, then he'd forced to choose a first target. If he's successful with his first choice, the other should be able to take him out, or they shouldn't be carrying. In fact, if all three are true shepherds, then they should see what's about to happen before the BG makes his move.

4) Lastly, and I have no proof to back this up (except that I see and read that "most" people who carry have never been in a gunfight on the street), I have to conclude that no matter how you carry, the odds of being killed are very slim. If this is true, and we then assume you open carry, the odds of you getting killed because you didn't have the element of surprise or because someone took your gun away from you and used it on you, though perhaps slightly higher than if you had concealed, would still be extremely low. Therefore, we can conclude that your morning commute is probably more dangerous than open carrying, and that as a lawfully armed citizen you could take that risk and live your whole life doing a ton of good for others (see points # 1 and 2).

Looking at various crime data, shooting reports, etc, its also apparent that 99.9% of the shootings we might be unlucky enough to be involved in would easily solved with a 5 shot revolver and there would likely be 3 unused rounds. So what is the point of carrying double stacked high capacity pistols and a couple back up mags?

[hunter480]

I admire your intent to sway the thinking of the non-gun owning public, but open carry won`t do that. It only makes them uneasy, and more suspicious.

And as you mentioned, the element of surprise is lost in open carry. If the bad guy see`s your weapon, he`s likely more easily going to neutrilize whatever threat you may have posed.

I see where you`re coming from, and I wish we could ever get to the place, where, open carry would be so prevelant, that no one would even give it any thought, but I don`t know if that will ever happen.

[AFA1CY]

opcorn2:

[melensdad]

Originally Posted by hunter480

I admire your intent to sway the thinking of the non-gun owning public, but open carry won`t do that. It only makes them uneasy, and more suspicious.

How do you know this? Especially if you are a regular customer at the local diner, or the local cigarette store, or gas station. They will get to know you in very short order and if other customers ask the waitress or clerks about you I'd be willing to bet that your presence is held in high regard (if you are a good/polite customer).

Originally Posted by hunter480

And as you mentioned, the element of surprise is lost in open carry. If the bad guy see`s your weapon, he`s likely more easily going to neutrilize whatever threat you may have posed.

Actually don't bad guys shy away from hard targets? Crime reports we hear from the gun press seem to indicate that criminals seek out weak targets.

If someone is going to rob a house and he has a choice of two, one with a big ass dog inside and one that belongs to a little old lady with a cat, who's house will be robbed? If someone is going to rob a store, will they rob the store with the armed guard or the one with just a camera system? Take a look at all the bank robberies that are happening right here in Indiana, how many of them occur at banks that are only staffed with unarmed tellers?

Walk in my store, see me with a gun on my hip, I'd bet you'd be polite and go rob the store next door.

Originally Posted by AFA1CY

opcorn2:

Hmmm. . . seems like a cop out to me!

[NateIU10]

Originally Posted by melensdad

How do you know this? Especially if you are a regular customer at the local diner, or the local cigarette store, or gas station. They will get to know you in very short order and if other customers ask the waitress or clerks about you I'd be willing to bet that your presence is held in high regard (if you are a good/polite customer).


Actually don't bad guys shy away from hard targets? Crime reports we hear from the gun press seem to indicate that criminals seek out weak targets.

If someone is going to rob a house and he has a choice of two, one with a big ass dog inside and one that belongs to a little old lady with a cat, who's house will be robbed? If someone is going to rob a store, will they rob the store with the armed guard or the one with just a camera system? Take a look at all the bank robberies that are happening right here in Indiana, how many of them occur at banks that are only staffed with unarmed tellers?

Walk in my store, see me with a gun on my hip, I'd bet you'd be polite and go rob the store next door.

Took the words right out of my mouth I agree with you 100%.

[abnk]

Originally Posted by melensdad

Aside from any potential tactical advantage of surprise or avoiding the dreaded gun grab, IMHO I feel concealed carry does more overall harm than good when looking at the bigger picture.

No, don't put those aside. Those reasons are critical and the only ones why I carry concealed most of the time. I only open-carry for PR and when I think it's prudent to do so.

when i was living in az. years ago before there was any ccw permits we all carried open i actually had a bg call le on me stating i was threatining him luckily the leos that showed up talked to the several witnesses that told them the truth. i was in a convenient store at the time that i was a regular at and one of the leos said in his opinion the bg wanted to make a beer run but didnt feel safe doing it with me there so he called 911 because he was pissed off and figured if i got arrested then he could commit his criminal deed. so i guess if i was concealed i never would have had that problem but since i was oc it stopped a beer run and who knows what else.

[Fenway]

I respect your right to carry openly. I choose concealed.

Reasons why for me.

As a civilian I don't want to draw attention to myself. I don't want people to know I am carrying. It is none of their business.

I want to go places where handguns "aren't allowed"

People who I respect and have a lot more experience than me tell me there is no advantage to carrying openly.

Every LEO I have come in contact with (through training classes) friends, etc have all suggested Concealed Carry. At a Fighting Pistol class a couple of years ago at ECPR guys from the Seymour PD were training with us and suggested CC. I have read Sheriff Ken Campbell recommends CC to his students. At the last Basic Pistol Class in New Castle the LEOs suggested CC.

Those are a couple of reasons why.

So what is the point of carrying double stacked high capacity pistols and a couple back up mags?

Because I like the advantage. What if I'm the guy who winds up in a fight that doesn't conform to your statistics. I have a computer in my house from the 90s but I run my macbook from 2008. Why? Because technology has changed and I appreciate the improvements.

[melensdad]

Originally Posted by Fenway

I respect your right to carry openly. I choose concealed.

I understand and have no problem with your choice, however it doesn't really address the points I made. Your logic is antidotal and based on suggestions from others.

As for your point about carrying the high capacity, I understand your point, and in that off chance you are involved in that 1 in 10,000,000 circumstance, then you would be better prepared than I. But that point was simply a follow up question/observation.

Originally Posted by abnk

No, don't put those aside. Those reasons are critical and the only ones why I carry concealed most of the time. I only open-carry for PR and when I think it's prudent to do so.

Yes, open carry may open someone up to a 'gun grab' but many holsters are specifically designed for retention from that.

Originally Posted by jerbur6

when i was living in az. years ago before there was any ccw permits we all carried open i actually had a bg call le on me stating i was threatining him luckily the leos that showed up talked to the several witnesses that told them the truth. i was in a convenient store at the time that i was a regular at and one of the leos said in his opinion the bg wanted to make a beer run but didnt feel safe doing it with me there so he called 911 because he was pissed off and figured if i got arrested then he could commit his criminal deed. so i guess if i was concealed i never would have had that problem but since i was oc it stopped a beer run and who knows what else.

You just proved my point because your open carry showed that there was no "easy target" and while you were somewhat inconvenienced, you were far less inconvenienced than if you had had to draw and/or draw & fire. Further, all the witnesses now appreciate the armed citizen, they stood up for you, and they learned a lesson that day. Armed honest citizens stop crime.

[Fenway]

I don't want to OC for many reasons some of which I explained in the previous thread. I read your points about educating the public, feeling proud about OC and that you aren't at a tactical disadvantage OCing. I can see advantages and disadvantages there. I don't feel like I would be educating anyone by walking around OCing.

My choice is to conceal my pistol. That is a choice I have made based on personal experiences, learning from others who have more experience than me and the realities of my lifestyle / work.

Why would I not want to carry a pistol with higher capacity? What is the disadvantage?

Originally Posted by melensdad

I understand and have no problem with your choice, however it doesn't really address the points I made. Your logic is antidotal and based on suggestions from others.

As for your point about carrying the high capacity, I understand your point, and in that off chance you are involved in that 1 in 10,000,000 circumstance, then you would be better prepared than I. But that point was simply a follow up question/observation.