What is your threshold?

[Pami]

Only one other thing to add....

You need to get your fiancee registered and reading here as well.

We'll give her a big group hug! Only TomN bites...the rest of us are mostly safe.

[SavageEagle]

Originally Posted by Pami

Only one other thing to add....

You need to get your fiancee registered and reading here as well.

We'll give her a big group hug! Only TomN bites...the rest of us are mostly safe.

Oh trust me I'm trying! LOL she's more of a myspace gal when she is online! LOL She's in dire need of feminine shooting support! Her email is sweet_savage_love@yahoo.com if you want to give her some encouragement!

[Dave]

Originally Posted by SavageEagle

Her email is sweet_savage_love@yahoo.com if you want to give her some encouragement!

[Yamaha]

Originally Posted by Fenway

Sounds like you might be able to face off against a former member here. He goes by "Mr. Glock" on youtube and he competes in "1 and done" competitions.

no idea, may have to browse that one.....better yet, pm me the story details....

Originally Posted by W9ZEB

I'm pretty sure pops is 40 feet, not yards.

Fort Wayne can't be worse than Gary can it?

idk, is it 40ft? I've been once whatever distance it was, I was pleased with myself

[obijohn]

[quote=Josh Smith;60135]

At any rate, why do we need training now, when we didn't back before say, the 1970s?

why do you think that we didn't need training in the 70's? defensive training is more available to the civilian now. in the 70's, not so much.

[TomN]

Originally Posted by Pami

Only TomN bites...the rest of us are mostly safe.

This is not entirely true! I mostly just nibble.

I only bite on request.

[munky_3434]

over in kuwait about 4 years ago(8 months before iraq pt 2) i was presented with a situation while on a mobile patrol.6 in the morning , 1 hour left on shift. we had 3 men in an SUV pull alongside a fenceline(guarding kuwait city intl airport military side). our job was basically to chase them off. as soon as we pulled up they feaked out and jumped in their vehicle and bolted.

we are then driving parallel(my partner was driving) on two roads about 20 meters apart, calling in the situation and driving about 65 mph. front passenger of their vehicle was trying to hide in the corner of the door by his seat. luckily for us the usaf provides superior vehicles(ford ranger) with a large storage capacity for two guys, ammo, flak jackets kevlar helmets, a m-16 and a m-249(mine)so all the "unnessecary gear goes in the bed. so i have to climb out a moving vehicle to get the 249 and cover them.

the passenger starts to get squirrely and appears to be presenting something. (rules of engagement suck)while trying to radio this in we hear BOOM, nothing hits the truck and no muzzel flash, i drew my weapon, jacked a round and placed it on fire.
by all rights i could have fired, but someting was'nt right. a second BOOM, a cloud of smoke and a vehicle out of comission. their suv backfired

my personal belief that it is largely instinct, i really can't answer exactly when

sorry for the crappy puncuation, spelling , and no capital letters

[Annie Oakley]

I've had both private and LEO training. It is important to continue training even if it is just done with another shooter that has more experience than you. Just a couple of weeks ago my brother and I shot and he was able to correct some bad habits I had fallen into from shooting alone. It made me better and I am still staying very aware of what I am doing all the time. Practice gives you the ability to do what you need to do without having to really think about it. That, IMHO, is where we need to get so that when TSHTF you react based on your training and practice.

This whole thread has been very interesting to read and I especially like it that people express their differing opinons respectfully and no one gets bent because of a different viewpoint.

[Josh Smith]

why do you think that we didn't need training in the 70's? defensive training is more available to the civilian now. in the 70's, not so much.

I'm a student of the Old West.

By way of example, I cannot find any 19th Century training schools. Yet, people did just fine in confrontations.

The most famous of these is probably the "shootout at the OK Corral." Didn't really take place at the corral but in an empty lot, but that's for another discussion. Every one of Clanton gang were killed, but the Earps and Doc Holliday were not. In fact, Wyatt was untouched, and Doc only had a scratch down his back - he was grazed.

It just all had to do with cool heads prevailing under stress, from what I can tell. As well, Morgan and Virgil kept fighting even after they went down with wounds. Nobody had to tell them to do this.

Probably the more pertinent one to today was between Luke Short and Jim Courtright. There's some debate as to whether this was a duel or self-defense but sticking strictly to the facts and not to mitigating circumstances, it went down like this: Short was threatened earlier by Courtright. Short's response was to cut down a double action Colt revolver and have made in his suit pants a "gun pocket," whereby the pocket was simply lined with leather - an early pocket holster.

When the two later met, Courtright (being the town marshall, though corrupt) told Luke not to pull a gun on him. (It's usually agreed that Courtright said this simply to establish that he was in fear of his life.) Luke responded that he was unarmed. They both went for their guns, and Luke got his out and going first. His shots hit Courtright in the right thumb, in the chest, and in the shoulder, killing him. Three or four shots were fired from a six (five loaded) shot, double action snubby revolver, landing three hits on an assailant. Short was cleared in court.

These, and other similar, incidents abound if you look. Cover and concealment were known about, but things happened so fast that they generally were unable to be used.

I'm not saying that training is not nice to have, but I just don't think that the blanked statement that it's an absolute requirement for everyone is accurate. If the complete novice buys a snub nosed revolver and 350 rounds of ammunition per week and actually practices drawing and shooting an 8x10" target at 3 to 15 feet everyday, he will be well prepared for 99.9% of any scenario that may befall him.

However, if you're going to get training, my take on it is this: Check out the credentials of several instructors - and know what to look for - or spend the money to go to a school such as LFI or Front Sight that's been in the business a while. Bad training is worse than no training, in my opinion. That's not to dump on anyone, anywhere, so please don't read it as such.

Only read it that bad instruction < no instruction < lots of practice < good instruction.

And that brings up another topic altogether - what is TRAINING? I went to a public, outside range the other day simply because it's adjacent to a gunstore I was doing business with. I had my 1911 on me, and there was a Vietnam Veteran trying to learn to shoot his compact Kimber. I had to diagnose a problem with my gun anyway, so I paid the $10 range fee, bought a box of ammo, and went out with him. He had indicated that he qualified with a 1911 in the military, but it was on a 50 yard range, one handed target shooting style. I showed him a few modern tricks, then went to the 7 yard line while he was empty and not shooting (and would not do so) and emptied my 1911 into my target, reloaded, did it again, then once more. (I was definitely shooting a bit to the right - I'd had to take the sights off and hadn't got them back on just where they were - and the slide stop and slide stop plunger pin had something wrong wrong with them and I ordered Wilson replacements after I was done shooting.) At any rate, after my little "display" which I had only done fast at a public range because fast was the only time the problem occurred, he had some questions. I showed him two things: lean toward the gun - don't let it scare you - and when asked about the teacup hold, I showed him why it was a bad idea. His shooting immediately improved.

But, I don't consider that training. I didn't take money for it, he didn't offer, and it was just one shooter who had been taught more modern methods (me) helping out someone who was somewhat of a handgun novice and making poor hits due to that fact.

Do you consider that as me training him? I sure don't, as I said.

What's training? No, I don't advocate handing someone a snub and 100 rounds without reviewing basic safety and sight alignment rules, but heck, I learned those from both my dad (who grew up hunting, but never hunted as I grew up) and Daisy safety pamphlets. Then I practiced, practiced, practiced. I ended up hunting and was able to hit anything I shot at.

Handguns were a bit different, but the basic ideas transferred. I believe, therefore, that if you've grown up shooting (or, especially, hunting, since it makes use of concealment) or if you were in the military and handled a rifle, you've already set good groundwork for handgun handling. If you have problems, hey, go onto the internet and read up on the latest and greatest handgun control (meaning, teacup vs modern grips) techniques and apply them. - the lessons learned by yourself stick with you the longest -

For example, one thing I'm doing right now is blinking when a round is fired. I know I'm doing this, but it's not causing me to flinch or shoot any worse than I was before. It started happening when an underpowered round didn't seal all the way and blew some debris back in my face (yes, I was wearing safety glasses.) However, it's happened since. It doesn't affect my shooting, my groups haven't gotten bigger, but it bugs me because I shouldn't be doing it. I know of no training that can help me here - just more practice.

Another bad habit is that I still sometimes run my gun dry. I was very proud of myself when I was able to do tac reloads with only one or two left in the spent magazine. (I was trained to reload at slidelock from behind cover as this was the thinking at the time.) It's a skill I'm still developing, but it's going well.

In other words, if you know your bad habits, you can likely change them yourself, IF you're well grounded in the basics and do some reading.

I'm still trying to figure out how to top off the mag of an SKS, but I think I've got that down too. Just pull the bolt back and hold it with your thumb while reloading with the other hand. This requires carrying a few loose rounds as opposed to stripper clips, and unlike a shotgun you have to take the rifle from your shoulder, but it works.

I've digressed big time here and I apologize. Ignore the last parts I guess

Josh <><