What is your threshold?

[Sailor]

Training is good. I don't believe, anymore, that it's 100% necessary, as long as you take the time to become familiar with your sidearm and devote time and money to practice. I'm talking at least 100 rounds per week here, though 50 rounds per day would be preferable

Sorry I disagree. With out training first you are wasting your 50 bullets a day. First you need someone to show you what critical skills you need to learn, then practice them.

Being familiar with your gun wont help you do one handed mag, changes because your other arm has been shot.

I have only had my carry gun for a year, and I practice a lot, but I have since realized I have been shooting a lot and training very little.

[Ri22o]

Originally Posted by Sailor

Sorry I disagree. With out training first you are wasting your 50 bullets a day. First you need someone to show you what critical skills you need to learn, then practice them.

Being familiar with your gun wont help you do one handed mag, changes because your other arm has been shot.

I have only had my carry gun for a year, and I practice a lot, but I have since realized I have been shooting a lot and training very little.

I agree. Those 50 rounds you shoot a day could go towards a class and training.

You could go to the batting cages and swing at 50 baseballs everyday, but if no one is there to tell you that you need to bring your foot back 2" and straighten up, then you are not only wasting your money, but you are also learning bad habits that would end up costing you more in the long run because they are memorized by your body and you need to unlearn them.

[Sailor]

and because of my precious cargo I avoided confrontation.

I try to avoid confrontation regardless of my cargo. Especially when I have a weapon on me.

[SilentWarrior1]

I have to be blunt. I respect your opinion, but I heartily disagree. There's a HUGE difference between practice and training. Practice is the working/reworking of individual skills whereas Training is putting those skills to use in real-life practical scenarios. People default to their lowest level of training. If people knew only individual skills, and not trained how to employ them... then those individual skills are worthless.

Originally Posted by Josh Smith

I've really just come to the conclusion that it's nice to have, but it's not a requirement.

What's more important than training is regular practice and familiarity with your firearm. Both breed more confidence than any three day course (not trying to step on anyone's toes here.)

I believe that's what's CRITICAL.

Familiarity of your weapon IS critical. It should grow to become an extension of yourself. However, there are things with your weapon that you can't just practice. Weak-side shooting, one-handed reloads, no-handed weapon charging, etc. Those skills have to be taught. Can you practice those? Yes. Using them practically REQUIRES training. Situational Awareness, Cover/Concealment, learning "threshold" (Yes, it CAN be taught), and learning defensive tactics requires TRAINING. Some people just don't think of that stuff themselves.

Originally Posted by Josh Smith

Since I just got up, let me summarize this so as to be 100% clear on what I'm saying: Training is good. I don't believe, anymore, that it's 100% necessary, as long as you take the time to become familiar with your sidearm and devote time and money to practice. I'm talking at least 100 rounds per week here, though 50 rounds per day would be preferable (and is what I personally try to do, finances permitting.)

Oh, to have the money and time... I would love to have that, too.

Believe me when I say I speak from experience. I have had people come into my instruction that knew nothing, or thought they knew everything, and I helped them develop into a better shooter and tactician. I personally, didn't know that much when I started. I had to be taught. I developed skills, and I developed bad habits. Training helped me find and eliminate bad habits before I took them to the battlefield.

Also, having a competent instructor TRAINING you is a great way to fix bad habits and make yourself better. You won't see them because you may not know any better. Having someone there to correct your flaws can VASTLY help you in the long run.

My $.02 and years of training experience. Hope I didn't step on your toes too much.

[Josh Smith]

Silent,

No, you didn't step on my toes at all.

There are certain things which I do see training as being necessary for, and you list most of them.

My statement doesn't mean that I was never trained to reload, or that I don't practice it. Neither does it mean that I was only trained to shoot at three yards. Far from it. My practice ranges are 1, 3, 7, 15 and 25 yards. I was taught cover and such as well, and practice it.

Yes, I've been to school

Ok, now, my point revolves around the 'typical' private citizen defense scenario: fast, dirty and done. I've never heard of a private citizen having to reload, for example. I really am beginning to think that the average Joe would be pretty well prepared if he trained to draw and fire two or three shots into the A zone. In other words, if he learns to hit the target, he's 99.9% there. The "fancy stuff" is reserved for that other 0.1% of the time when things get drawn out for whatever reason.

At any rate, why do we need training now, when we didn't back before say, the 1970s?

Even if you don't agree, are you seeing where I'm coming from? In other words, am I being clear?

Josh <><

P.S. I'm a CQC instructor, or at least I'm certified to be one. Bare hand, knives, other weapons. Haven't done much with firearms as I was never certified by anyone to teach them. Some of the things which cross over, like situational awareness, verbal de-escalation, disparity of force, etc I guess maybe I take for granted anymore as being common sense when I write about this stuff. Looking at it, knowing that's how I think, I maybe figure most people think that way. It'd be foreign to me if they didn't. Dunno. J.S.

[Josh Smith]

The above is all assuming that the shooting was called for in the first place. J.S.

[Thickburger]

i have to step in for a second here. you can practice and rationalize all you want but it really does come down to reaction and instinct. i thought i was pretty well prepared in scenario before i took Fighting Pistol with Shay but after about 3hrs in the 1st day you realize how almost everything you know is wrong.

Shay's classes are VERY intense and don't go as smoothly as an IDPA match. they are about constant awareness and being able to react quickly and under stress.

you think you are ready? try imagining Shay and another adult man wrestling with you and yelling while you need to empty a magazine into a target 6" away a quickly as possible then reload and be ready again. just the concussion from the firearm at that distance is a surprise but all of that combined is enough to really rattle your cage.

*disclaimer. i am NOT advising anyone try the above scenario w/o proper training and supervision. i'm just using that as an example as one of the Tactical Response training drills in the Fighting Pistol class. it is a very dangerous drill and there are several precautions taken during the class in case something does go wrong.

[Josh Smith]

you think you are ready? try imagining Shay and another adult man wrestling with you and yelling while you need to empty a magazine into a target 6" away a quickly as possible then reload and be ready again. just the concussion from the firearm at that distance is a surprise but all of that combined is enough to really rattle your cage.

Agreed it's tough. That's the reason you try not to get into that situation in the first place.

My point is that 99.9% of the time, a scenario like that won't happen even if you are attacked. If it did happen to me in that fashion, my number one priority would be weapon retention. Or so I've been trained.

If you're going to be intentionally in harm's way, then by all means, yes, you need to be trained like that. But as private citizens it's our duty to retreat - if not legally, then perhaps morally, if nobody would be in danger through inaction.

you can practice and rationalize all you want but it really does come down to reaction and instinct.

Exactly. And my point is that since it is reaction and instinct, you're going to have a lot of adrenaline going, cutting out fine motor skills. Thus, it would probably be a good idea to shoot under stress to try to simulate that as closely as possible.

I think you misunderstood something I wrote earlier: I don't believe IDPA is training. I think that you can get an idea of where you stand when compared to others using competition, but it's not a means of training at all.

The bottom line is that you don't know how you're going to react unless you've been there, no matter how much training you've had. The training only gives a rough outline. Things happen fast and you react to them. Beyond that, I'm not willing to go into first person real world encounters at this point.

Josh <><

[Shay VanVlymen]

Josh,

What formal training have you had?

[SilentWarrior1]

Clear as mud.

Seriously though, Another preset to training is learning new ideas to situations you may have not thought of.

My school of training is very combat-oriented, where firefights are expected to be drawn out, high volume, and very tense. Where the schools of thought differ, I can see where some of that might not be necessary, or at least percieved to be. It's not at all fancy... actually, it's "dig-into-the-dirt and move when it's tactically sound and/or necessary" training.

Whereas that might not be as necessary as someone who carries around town and encounters a mugger or something. Those types of situations are quick and over within 2-3 shots. Learning how to "dig-in and provide suppressive fire" would be as prudent.

I've been meaning to save some money for training that's more civillian-oriented. Just not had the chance.