Conflict resulting from perceived wrong doing

[mercop]

Most of the time we talk about self-defense situations we conjure up images of a “criminal” attack like a robbery or car jacking. One of the most dangerous and common scenarios that is left out is what I call conflict from a perceived wrongdoing. I will give you an example.

A few weeks ago I was doing a small knife show in Raleigh NC. One night me and a few of my friends who also happened to be students went out to a cigar bar and then were kind of hanging on the street people watching. The street was lined with bars and had lots of pedestrian traffic. Towards the end of the night with the bars closing people began returning to their cars. One guy was about 6 ft, 190 lbs and in pretty good shape, he was also very intoxicated and angry. It seemed he had been asked to leave a bar. He had a buddy with him that was trying to calm him down while they waited for their ride. The drunk guy became more and more agitated and began pacing around, arms bowed out and fists clinched. We call this the “C” position, you see it when people are stewing with anger, it usually results in an violent physical eruption. Most people reading this have been in the “C” position, it is what you do before loosing your temper and pounding your fist into a wall, some people it is into a person.

Our drunk guy was yelling and screaming and was being verbally abusive to people who looked at him. There was a young college kid who was some kind of a safety patrol in the parking lot and he became the focus of the drunk’s anger. For some reason the drunk turned around and found my group looking at him. He turned from the kid and began to make a b-line towards us asking us WTF we were looking at. None of us spoke. He was about 10 yards away when his buddy got between him and us and began pleading with us not to kick his ….. Since he was drunk and had a ride coming. The drunk turned around and disappeared into the crowd.

There were five of us and three of us were armed with guns, everyone was armed with knives. Three of us were substantially bigger than the drunk. Had he not been stopped by his buddy there is no doubt in my mind that there would have been a physical confrontation.

During my law enforcement career I have seen several violent attacks occur between two people that otherwise did not know each other over these perceived wrong doings. They make no logical sense and happen quickly thus requiring open hand skills. Just something to keep in mind.- George

[indoorsoccerfrea]

Just another example of how things can go south quickly, good post!

[Scutter01]

Originally Posted by mercop

They make no logical sense and happen quickly thus requiring open hand skills. Just something to keep in mind.- George

I don't want to take the focus away from the rest of the post, but I wanted to comment on this one particular part.

It never ceases to amaze me when people rely solely on a gun for personal protection. It's just one of a number of tools you should have at your disposal. I'm not saying you need to become a karate master or anything, but taking some open-hand self-defense classes should be as much a priority as any shooting class. When things go south, they sometimes go south WAY too fast for you to draw.

[mercop]

Very true, that is the reason why teach teach use of the open hands during any class. Not just the combatives but taking physical control of a loved one during an attack or feeling your way around a vehicle or building.

Had one of us been there alone I feel there would have been a confrontation. The guy had his arms out to his side, fists, clinched. His shirt was open and I could see his waistband and all pockets. He did not appear to be armed. Of course all that can change by him just picking up something from the environment. If you are attacked under these circumstances you are going to need to be able to do something besides drawing a gun. Not to mention if it was a shoot situation it had no backstop due to the crowd. - George

[emrock32]

Well if there were more of you than him, I would wait until he atually tries to attack to pull. If he starts to attack one of you, others can pull him off and another can aim and threaten him that you will shoot if he tries to get back up while dialing the police. Sure, one of you might be going home with a black eye, but its better than just pulling a gun out and shooting someone that might not even know what hes doing. police would most likely investigate as well if you would just pull a gun only for someone looking angry but not attacking you. Being alone, that would be a tough one. I would hope that my fighting skills would be better and if i were losing, hopefully I would be able to pull or yell out for help.

[Boilers]

Just trip a drunk. They aren't weebles.

[AirbornePFC]

I work at a bar. It's a pretty mellow college bar but I see your so called "C" position a lot. I walked up to two guys a few nights ago on our patio who were arguing, one was doing most of the yelling etc, with his girlfriend trying to pull him back. I walked up and he pointed at me and stated "Now this Motha f-er wants to say something!" and began to direct his frustration towards me. I replied while looking him square in the eye (something that works with dogs and people lol) that "this mother f-er works here! and if he wants to stay he batter calm the heck down!" I have a co-worker who loves to jump in between guys like this and start pushing people I've found that eye contact and a firm "leave" work well. I have also been approached by a drunk while not a work a time or two and (I believe I have previously posted this) I generally give them this speech.... very calm and collected i might add..

"Hey man I don't want trouble. I don't want to fight. but if you keep coming I'm going to kick you in the nuts. It's only fair I'm a little guy and little guys have to fight dirty. I just want to let you know so you don't get mad, I mean look at you you could probably kill me, and that's just not fair so to make it fair I'll have to kick you in the nuts first... etc... etc"

It has yet to fail...

Day 1 Army Combatives
"Who always wins in a fight?"
"The guy whose friend shows up with a gun first."

Sounds like you had this angle pretty well covered mecrop! You never fail to present us with thought provoking posts!

[Cpt Caveman]

Emrock, that's bovine feces, friend. Let him attack before you do anything to stop obviously aggressive behavior? One blow to the head can seriously and permanently damage you or even kill you.
You can step to the front of the crowd next time we see any aggressive drunks and live by your words.
I'm NOT saying that feller needed shot but to say you should let him hit someone before he's stopped is ludicrous.

[AirbornePFC]

Originally Posted by Cpt Caveman

Emrock, that's bovine feces, friend. Let him attack before you do anything to stop obviously aggressive behavior? One blow to the head can seriously and permanently damage you or even kill you.
You can step to the front of the crowd next time we see any aggressive drunks and live by your words.
I'm NOT saying that feller needed shot but to say you should let him hit someone before he's stopped is ludicrous.

I think he missed mecrop's final point in the original post about HAND TO HAND SKILLS

[emrock32]

Well I think it would raise some flags if you just pulled a gun on someone who would be walking towards you looking angry. If a cop had asked you what he was doing before you pulled, what would you say? "He was walking towards me and he looked really really angry." I dont know if some cops or judges would take that as a self defense shooting if you would have to shoot. You could get away with pulling possibly but i dought shooting. Am I right?