Carry Mode: 1 in chamber LOCKED, 0 in chamber, etc..

[redsuperduty]

Originally Posted by critter592

You are not an idiot.

I have training. I want more. I carry chambered and no external safety/de-cocker HK USPc .40 LEM.

I have pondered the no chambered round carry. And here is what I felt while thinking about it. I thought that it might lead me to draw too early knowing I needed more time (not a lot of time just more time) to draw, rack and aim at the attack. Knowing I need more time might lead me to "jump the gun" (pun) and be faced with a "pointing a gun" charge if I didn't read the situation correctly. Being absolutely sure that I am in a situation where I could be killed or receive SBI will likely be lightning fast. My reaction to it should be lightning fast. Having to rack diminishes my ability to react in the manner that I wish and have been trained. For that reason I carry chambered.

The perfect example of a RESPECTABLE difference in opinion. Critter told me he does things different without telling me how dumb, or dead I will be. Rep coming your way, Thanks!

[RHorn]

With practice disengaging the safety and drawing can be done at the same time without hesitation.

[RHorn]

You aren't an idiot. A lot of it depends on the situation for me. If I am just running out to get gas or something I usually don't worry about it and go un-chambered. If I know I am going to be walking from my house to my friends house in a semi-shady area I will go cocked and locked. It all depends on the situation and what I decide is best for me. Either way I make sure I always keep something with me because it may be a little slower to rack it but it does no good left at home.

[Timjoebillybob]

Originally Posted by redsuperduty

Around here in farm country / small town or driving down the road there is nothing in the chamber. Now, if I am in a rough nieghborhood, big city, or anywhere that I'm not comfy with my surroundings I rack one in.

Originally Posted by RHorn

A lot of it depends on the situation for me. If I am just running out to get gas or something I usually don't worry about it and go un-chambered. If I know I am going to be walking from my house to my friends house in a semi-shady area I will go cocked and locked. It all depends on the situation and what I decide is best for me.

I'm not calling either of you any names, just putting in my and maybe giving you something to think about. Whether you carry with one in the pipe or not, that is up to you. But in my opinion you should do one or the other. If your used to putting one in the pipe when your heading somewhere a bit more dangerous than usual, and forget to, if it's needed your probably going to get one heck of surprise when it goes click instead of boom and hopefully just a surprise. And the exact opposite if you forget to take it out when you come back.

Where if you just carry it one way only less chance of a mistake.

[chezuki]

Originally Posted by Timjoebillybob

I'm not calling either of you any names, just putting in my and maybe giving you something to think about. Whether you carry with one in the pipe or not, that is up to you. But in my opinion you should do one or the other. If your used to putting one in the pipe when your heading somewhere a bit more dangerous than usual, and forget to, if it's needed your probably going to get one heck of surprise when it goes click instead of boom and hopefully just a surprise. And the exact opposite if you forget to take it out when you come back.

Where if you just carry it one way only less chance of a mistake.

+1
However you carry, regardless of my opinions, consistancy is paramount to getting the expected results when it counts the most.

[critter592]

Ok found what I was trying to reference. It was a shooting in Los Angeles not the FBI shootout in Florida (1986). It speaks to the law of primacy. What you learn first is what you are going to keep doing under high stress. They found dead officers with spent shells in their pockets because that's what they practiced in training rather than pick up brass at the end of the training. My point is that if you practice carrying not chambered then chamber only in the bad areas then your habbit when confronted in the bad area will be to rack the slide. You will have racked a round right out of your gun.

The other thing I will mention is the possibility for having racked the same round so many times that when you go to fire it explodes in the chamber rendering your gun useless. Keep it in mind to rotate rounds if chambering often.

Here is an article on what I am refering to: Shooting Outside of the Box - Article - POLICE Magazine

Bad Habits
"Conditioned yourself to do during training" is the key concept here. This expert is conditioning his students to stand still in a wooden box during a gunfight.

OK. The wooden box is an absurd training concept. I'm sure you're not doing anything that clueless in your training. But ask yourself, what bad habits are you embedding in your brain?

If you consistently train using this box or some other impractical training method on the range, will you look for the box on the street before you shoot? If you're running for cover, will you stop to plant your feet "properly" before you return fire? If you're fighting with a bad guy over the possession of your weapon, will you hold your fire until your feet are in the "right position?"

Some of you may think these ideas are too ridiculous to think of, but think back to our recent past. Think back to April 6, 1970, to the gun battle that has become known as "The Newhall Incident."

On that dreadful day four young California Highway Patrol officers lost their lives in a running gunfight with two career criminals. During the subsequent investigation of the incident, some of the officers were found to have spent shell casings in their pockets. In the middle of this horrendous firefight, that only lasted 4.5 minutes, the officers did exactly what they had been trained, conditioned, or allowed to do on the range. Rather than waste time picking up empty brass at the end of the range day, just eject the empty shells from your revolver into your hand, and put them in your pocket.

There is another case involving an officer who was wounded and lying on his side. Civilian eyewitnesses stated they observed the officer repeatedly trying to sit up to reload. The officer had been trained to reload from a seated position, but had never been trained to reload while on his side. The eyewitnesses watched in horror as the bad guy calmly walked up to the officer and shot him in the head as the officer was still trying to sit up to reload.

You will not always fall back on the bad habits you learn in training, but sometimes you will. How else can you explain the two incidents discussed above?

Your training needs to be realistic, and you always need to remember Murphy's Law because "what can go wrong, will go wrong, and at the worst possible time." Putting brass in your pocket or trying to sit up to reload when you can do it on your side are just two examples out of many bad habits that you can learn in training.

[Glock21]

Originally Posted by critter592

Ok found what I was trying to reference. It was a shooting in Los Angeles not the FBI shootout in Florida (1986). It speaks to the law of primacy. What you learn first is what you are going to keep doing under high stress. They found dead officers with spent shells in their pockets because that's what they practiced in training rather than pick up brass at the end of the training. My point is that if you practice carrying not chambered then chamber only in the bad areas then your habbit when confronted in the bad area will be to rack the slide. You will have racked a round right out of your gun.

Or, you'll die getting sliced and diced because you tied your support arm up trying to rack your slide when your SHOULD HAVE BEEN BLOCKING AND SHOOTING!

Sorry folks, I'm not about to name call or be rude, but I am going state very sternly what it is we are talking about here.

1- We have decided to carry guns - because of that, were are saying to ourselves and the rest of the world that we have the ability to make LIFE AND DEATH decisions. So, is our training relevant? Can we really do that, or are we living a lie? Are we just making it up as we go? Are our carry philosophies and practices based in reality, or a wish and a prayer?

WE MUST BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES! WE don't have to admit anything here, or impress anyone else on the face of this Earth, but if we value our lives, and the innocent lives around us, we must accept reality!

2- Reality consists of many things not limited to this list:

a) We are the GOOD GUYS. We are not criminals, nor are we God, nor are we psychic. There isn't a single one of us that gets to choose the who, what, where, when, or why of our next gunfight. We don't get to know any of those things - EVER! We need to train and carry accordingly!

b) Assuming we will have two working arms, or at the least two AVAILABLE arms, when this fight starts is naive, to put it nicely. I've seen too many fights. I've been chosen for victimization three times in my life, and all I've seen, read and experienced tells me that racking the slide at the beginning of an attack is a ridiculous notion not worthy of the slightest consideration.

c) There is no such thing as a "nice" neighborhood, and there is no such thing as "safe." If we decide to carry guns then we need to have them READY TO USE! If we're not willing to do that, then we need quit living a lie and leave them at home. And if we carry one gun, we need to carry two!

d) Life is not fair, and it rarely goes as planned.

e) Gunfight are much more like fistfights than most of us would like to confront. We have to expect the worst and train accordingly. We have to expect the VCA(s) to be on top of us and very violent from the onset. We need to expect to be cut, hit, kicked, stabbed, shot and spit on, and we need to fight through it! We need to face the reality that our guns need to go BANG right-freeking-now, that we will experience muzzle blast up into our faces, and it will be a messy, violent, ugly affair that will etch into our memories forever things like the smell of their breath and the hate in their eyes.

3- We owe it to ourselves to get proper training. Sure, you can open carry an empty pistol and that might be enough to keep the wolves at bay for the remander of your days on the planet...then again, it might not. It is my opinion - and that amounts to some stranger on the internet, so take it for what it's worth - that every person who opts to carry a gun for protection needs to seek out training in three fields:

- The mechanics of shooting and gunfighting. A class that teaches more than sight alignment a poking cute holes in static paper. We need to know movement, draw stroke, shooting from retention, weapons retention techniques, reloading, scanning, hitting moving targets, support hand shooting, one handed shooting, contact shots, etc...

- Medical. We need to know how to patch holes and keep ourselves and other innocents alive until help arrives.

- Legalities. We need to know when we can and can't shoot. How to deal with police, jail, courts, lawyers, investigators. What to say and what not to say.

It does us no good to buy and carry a gun without knowing how to use it.

It does us no good to learn how to properly use a gun in defense, but then bleed to death on the sidewalk.

It does us no good to righteously defend ourselves, treat our wounds, and then spend the rest of our lives in jail because we said the wrong thing to a cop.



All that being said, if any of us are doubting our skills to the point that we won't even load our guns, then we need to reconsider what it is we are doing and either seek out instruction that will properly build our confidence, or get guns out of our lives.

If a person indicates to me that they choose to not carry a gun because they are feeling sick, they had a beer before they left the house, they are on medication, or they simply don't feel like it, then you won't hear a peep of argument from me. But if an able bodied person holsters up an empty gun on purpose, and then expects to share a car or a dinner table with me, they can find someone else to socialize with. I consider that person worse than useless! They are living in fantasyland, and being around them is a death wish. I can't count on their skills or judgement...I can't even count on their gun to work.

[RHorn]

Originally Posted by Timjoebillybob

I'm not calling either of you any names, just putting in my and maybe giving you something to think about. Whether you carry with one in the pipe or not, that is up to you. But in my opinion you should do one or the other. If your used to putting one in the pipe when your heading somewhere a bit more dangerous than usual, and forget to, if it's needed your probably going to get one heck of surprise when it goes click instead of boom and hopefully just a surprise. And the exact opposite if you forget to take it out when you come back.

Where if you just carry it one way only less chance of a mistake.

I more often than not have a round in the pipe but sometimes if I am in a hurry or something instead of leaving it behind I will grab it and put it in my car or my bag. When I am actually carrying it has a round in it. I am consistent about that. The only reason I wouldn't have a round in to begin with is because I just cleaned it. I shoot probably 3-5 days a week most weeks and have a very good memory of things that I do and do the same thing everytime. But I do understand what you are saying about forgetting if there is a round or in or not.

[MTC]

Truth.
Reality.
Excellent.

[KahrFan]

I will not own an external safety gun. I carry a kahr cw45 with one in the chamber. Draw and fire. You don't need anything more to think about (fumbling with a safety or chambering one in) other than "I am in grave danger. I'm going to stop this attack...now."