Mandatory Notification at traffic stop??

[Metro 40]

Free to go? If you were free to go, why the hell would I have pulled you over?

Seriously, Rhino is right....there is no duty to inform in Indiana. If you keep your LTCH where it can't be seen, and also keep your handgun concealed, then more than likely the issue will never come up.

Whether you want to be friendly and cooperative with the officer or standoffish and annoying (ie: asking 10 times if you are free to go), is of course up to you. You don't have to be nice. And I don't have to let you off with a warning. Most people talk themselves into a ticket.

I would, however, recommend that you use Rhino's method if you've got a pound of cocaine in the console.

[tjeads]

I gotta tell you, I LOVE having a LEO on this thread to read it all from his perspective. Thanks for posting officer and hang around here to inform us. You do know that we are ON YOUR SIDE!!!

[hoosiertriangle]

We've discussed this before but its worth repeating. What you have here are two competing views of how to deal with a traffic stop. First is Rhino's absolute protection of his rights view, and second is your view of cooperation because I've nothing to hide view.

My opinion on the subject is lean strongly toward Rhino's viewpoint. At issue is the motivation of the police officer. When you are pulled over, the officer is conducting and investigation and generally looking for signs that give them probable cause to dig deeper. My goal in the traffic stop is get on with my business without jeopardizing any of my legal rights. This means the fastest way out is to take my citation (assume I was speeding) and move on. I don't cooperate further than is required because cooperation only opens me up to risk.

The example I gave last time was that assume last week I gave my nephew and one of his friends a ride to school last week. Unknown to me, the friend forgot to get his backpack when they got out. The officer when he pulls me over asks if I have anything in the vehicle he should know about. I say no and he asks if he take a look in the vehicle. I step, out and the officer opens the friend's bag and finds drugs in the bag. Here I've opened myself to a world of hurt because I cooperated and gave up rights.

Never give up your rights. You can be friendly and patient, but never volunteer information nor allow your vehicle to be searched. If being quiet and not saying anything other than what is required makes the officer more suspicious, so be it, but my goal is to protect my rights and the officer's goal is to find a reason to keep the search/stop going. The officer is not trying to be your friend by pulling you over, you shouldn't try to be his. Being polite and calm will you get you just as far as "being cooperative" without jeopardizing your rights.

"I didn't know . . ." won't get you very far when you've already said or done too much. I want to make clear that my motivation isn't to get out of a ticket, my motivation is to ensure I don't get myself in any hot water.

Originally Posted by Nathan

i respect your opinion rhino, however, the answers
you will provide the officer will more than likely land you in a more timely stop than simply cooperating. with answers like that the officer will be more tempted to dig deeper with a citizen who is unwilling to cooperate or answer questions straightforward.

i will present the carry permit, my liscense, my registration and proof of insurance at the time of the stop, and if asked if i currently have one, it will be "yes at my 4 o'clock" or "yes between the seat and center console" my goal is to be as cooperative and honest so they can get about their business and i can get about to mine.

[IndyBeerman]

Originally Posted by Indy_Guy_77

GOOD CALL.

One of my good friends keeps his LTCH right underneath his license; both are kept in one of those 'see-through' pouches on his wallet.

Last time he was pulled over, as he was getting his wallet out, the po-po saw the pink card and then subsequently asked my buddy if he were carrying, etc etc. Guy asked my buddy for his firearm (not sure if friend unloaded it or the po-po did) and took it with him to the cruiser while the paperwork was being done. (Probably to run the serial # of the pistol)


-J-

An old co-worker of mine is a leo, he told me that if I was ever asked to
surrender my firearm during a traffic stop to refuse and offer to step out
of the vehicle and lock it. Reason because I keep it in a console beside me and it would require the officer to either reach across me or walk around. (as a safety factor to prevent a accidental discharge) so it would be secured and walk back with him to his vehicle.

He said it does 2 things secures the weapon from use and gets you away from it.

Never been in this situation so I don't know exactly what I'll say until it happens.

IndyBeerman

[milton]

i don't get stopped often, only once since I've carried, and it was as a passenger. It was IMPD we immediately informed him of my firearm. He asked where it was, I told, he came and removed it from my ankle and said thanks for telling me. I'm okay with this, no big deal. The big deal was that he never once asked me if I had a LTCH. That bugged me, and the cop wasn't very nice.

[Bigum1969]

Originally Posted by milton

i don't get stopped often, only once since I've carried, and it was as a passenger. It was IMPD we immediately informed him of my firearm. He asked where it was, I told, he came and removed it from my ankle and said thanks for telling me. I'm okay with this, no big deal. The big deal was that he never once asked me if I had a LTCH. That bugged me, and the cop wasn't very nice.

Removed it from your ankle?

That had to be an awkward moment

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Metro 40

This is not to say that every officer will disarm everyone with a handgun and a LTCH. Circumstances will dictate what happens. Most of the time, I don't disarm motorists during a traffic stop if they tell me that they have a LTCH and a pistol. However, if they don't tell me about it and I happen to see it, or if they appear nervous or fidgety, or if there's any other reason that I just feel like something might not be right, I will disarm someone.

I've only been disarmed once, when I first got my FLA CCW and I was 21. Only time I've ever volunteered. Never do it again either. It ended very well (probably being a fire fighter in a neighboring county had a lot to do with it) anyway I didn't say anything and just went along with it. Wound up a bunch of deputies passing it around sighting in on passing traffic... I had to remind them it was loaded. Trippy.

So, if I'm asked to hand over my firearm or be disarmed (assuming it's a routine traffic stop scenario) exactly how can I politely decline? Obviously if it's going to happen, it's going to happen but I do NOT want my non resistance to imply I'm consenting to it.

Something like "I don't consent to searches or seizures"?

I don't want to be an ass or sound like I'm going to resist but at the same time I'm not consenting to it.

What decent, law-abiding LTCH holders have to realize is, those little pink pieces of paper are VERY easy to make with a good laser printer. Please don't be upset if you are temporarily disarmed during a traffic stop. The officer is just erring on the side of caution. His or her perceptions and concerns are likely much different than yours.

I hope what decent LEO's realize is that the whole world isn't out to get them Also there are several states in which you don't even need a license or permit to carry a loaded handgun.

[Bill of Rights]

Originally Posted by Metro 40

Buzzzzzzzz.....wrong.

Any time a police officer is conducting an investigation, based on reasonable suspicion that a violation of law has occurred, he or she most certainly is authorized to disarm the subject of the investigation for the duration of the stop. This would include a traffic stop.

There is no law that says this that I know of, but there is certainly case law where the court has leaned heavily in favor of officer safety in other circumstances. I think it would be silly to assume that the state would issue a license for something (carrying a handgun), and not have any authority to regulate the activity.

This is not to say that every officer will disarm everyone with a handgun and a LTCH. Circumstances will dictate what happens. Most of the time, I don't disarm motorists during a traffic stop if they tell me that they have a LTCH and a pistol. However, if they don't tell me about it and I happen to see it, or if they appear nervous or fidgety, or if there's any other reason that I just feel like something might not be right, I will disarm someone.

What decent, law-abiding LTCH holders have to realize is, those little pink pieces of paper are VERY easy to make with a good laser printer. More than one individual has had their permit revoked, but still has the paper copy. And there are always a small percentage of LTCH holders who shouldn't be allowed within 50 yards of any firearm. LTCH's aren't exactly difficult to get. How many bad drivers do you know that have a license to drive a car?

And sadly, I've locked up more than one person for both misdemeanors and felonies that were legally carrying a pistol with a valid LTCH. Thankfully, MOST LTCH holders are good, law-abiding people. But one of the big rules of officer safety is to never assume anything!

Please don't be upset if you are temporarily disarmed during a traffic stop. The officer is just erring on the side of caution. His or her perceptions and concerns are likely much different than yours.

Metro,

With respect, why is "officer safety" more important than anyone else's safety, except to the officer and his/her family? If you are reaching across me to remove my gun from it's holster, you are almost certainly going to have to cover me with the barrel of my own gun in the process of removing it from the holster. Add to that the fact that reaching across my body in that fashion exposes you to, for example, a nasty poke with a knife, a chemical spray attack, or any of a host of other situations you'd be much safer avoiding, not to mention the fact that the gun in its holster cannot be fired while it remains there. YOU are safer with the gun of a peaceable, law-abiding citizen right where it is, under his/her control. (yes, if stopped, he/she may have committed a traffic infraction; yes, I know that's a violation of law, but we all know it's nigh-impossible to drive two miles without committing some traffic infraction. Let's not split hairs over this trivial revenue-generation scheme.)
If your concern is whether or not a LTC is valid, take the card and run it. The card can't have a ND. If you think the driver is a threat, then cuff and detain him/her pending the running of license/registration/LTC, and once s/he's out of the car s/he can be safely disarmed without covering anyone.

Understand, please, I do value the safety of LEOs. I just don't do so any more or less highly than I do other people who uphold the law.

Blessings,
B

[Bill of Rights]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

there are several states in which you don't even need a license or permit to carry a loaded handgun.

As it should be. Everywhere.

Blessings,
B

[Metro 40]

Originally Posted by Bill of Rights

Metro,

With respect, why is "officer safety" more important than anyone else's safety, except to the officer and his/her family? If you are reaching across me to remove my gun from it's holster, you are almost certainly going to have to cover me with the barrel of my own gun in the process of removing it from the holster. Add to that the fact that reaching across my body in that fashion exposes you to, for example, a nasty poke with a knife, a chemical spray attack, or any of a host of other situations you'd be much safer avoiding, not to mention the fact that the gun in its holster cannot be fired while it remains there. YOU are safer with the gun of a peaceable, law-abiding citizen right where it is, under his/her control. (yes, if stopped, he/she may have committed a traffic infraction; yes, I know that's a violation of law, but we all know it's nigh-impossible to drive two miles without committing some traffic infraction. Let's not split hairs over this trivial revenue-generation scheme.)
If your concern is whether or not a LTC is valid, take the card and run it. The card can't have a ND. If you think the driver is a threat, then cuff and detain him/her pending the running of license/registration/LTC, and once s/he's out of the car s/he can be safely disarmed without covering anyone.

Understand, please, I do value the safety of LEOs. I just don't do so any more or less highly than I do other people who uphold the law.

Blessings,
B

Your pistol IS safer in the holster. On the vast majority of traffic stops that I have made in my career, where the driver has a LTCH and advises me of such, I have not disarmed the driver.

When I'm talking about officer safety, I'm talking about considerations other than the simple case of a driver with a LTCH and a pistol. This would be a situation where something doesn't seem right, or there are reasons for the stop other than your run-of-the-mill traffic infraction. It's safety from the PERSON with the gun, not safety from the gun itself. Obviously, it's not going to go off on it's own....unless maybe it says "Lorcin" on the side.

When I've felt the need to disarm someone temporarily, I've always called for a second unit and had the person step out of the car after telling me where the pistol is. If it's in the car, it stays in the car. If it's in a holster, one of us removes it and secures it for the duration of the stop. This would apply in situations like a suspicious looking permit (looks fake), driver just left a known crack house, vehicle and driver match the description of a wanted subject, etc.

I know that not everyone is out to get LEO's. Truth be told, I don't make many traffic stops solely for traffic infractions, unless it's a pretty blatant case of blowing a red light or driving 20 mph over the speed limit in a residential area. I've met a lot of decent folks and cut a lot of breaks when I should have wrote a ticket. But I've also seen the other side of the fence. I've had situation where, if I hadn't gotten the drop on someone, I'd have probably been shot. It certainly does engender a modicum of caution on my part when I'm conducting business.

As far as anyone else's safety? Well, I strive to make the scene safe for everyone involved when I'm working....but I'm the one who is raising my kids. Of course my safety is #1 to me. It's the same as your decision to carry a pistol for your protection....because YOUR safety is paramount to you. That's not an LEO/Citizen thing....that's a human thing.