I found a machinegun in Grandma's attic!!!

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  • VUPDblue

    Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
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    Mar 20, 2008
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    Franklin Township
    Not really!:( But it is happening more and more these days with the passing of WWII vets. People are going through Grandpa Walt's or Uncle Jesse's belongings after they pass away and are finding all kinds of stuff like Thompsons, MP40s, Grease Guns, you name it. Here is a write-up I found on another site that was done by a prominent SOT which covers what one should do in such a situation. There are a couple things that he suggests:



    Mike of Distinction Arms said:
    The usual LE or museum response is to register any MG with an unknown history that they come across on a Form 10.

    DO NOT EVER USE A FORM 10 FOR ANYTHING.

    There are two reasons for this:

    1. Once on a Form 10, that gun is 100% completely and totally NON-transferable. I know of one case where a .410 H&R Handy Gun was put on a Form 10 once it was donated to a PD. Guess what papers we found THREE WEEKS LATER? Yup, the original 1968 amnesty registration paperwork.

    Yes, thank God that it wasn't a machine gun. But still, a formerly transferable piece of history is now even more restricted than a post-86 DS MG.

    2. A Form 10 is for registration BY the PD. Non-PD use of the form isn't legitimate. Furthermore, since it's the form used to register an otherwise contraband firearm, you're essentially admitting to the feds that you have a contraband firearm. It is generally poor practice to admit to a federal law enforcement agency that you're in violation of any law, much less a felony-level law.

    Okay, moving away from the F10, anybody who finds themselves in possession of a potentially undocumented firearm is in a legally precarious situation. I am NOT an attorney, nor do I claim to be one. This is not legal advice.

    So what am I? I am a SOT who hates seeing history destroyed, restricted through F10 registration, or simply driven underground unnecessarily.

    Let me say this a second time: It's not proper for me to offer legal advice because I am not an attorney.

    This is what many of my clients have done:

    1. They put the firearm away. It doesn't go out, doesn't go to shoots, and nobody is told about the firearm or firearms' existence.

    2. They search through each sheet of paper, under every rock, behind every drawer (TWO sets of papers were found behind or under drawers in old dressers), etc. Remember that registration forms are tax papers. Many folks filed them with their old taxes, not with their gun stuff. So don't just dump your deceased relatives' ancient taxes! Search, search, SEARCH. Treat this like looking for a lost winning lottery ticket. In a way, it IS–– find papers and suddenly a weird questionable gun becomes very, very valuable.

    3. The search continues. This search part is put in twice because my previous clients spent twice the time searching. They tore into that attic, the garage, and through every individual file in every file cabinet, in every sock and junk drawer... THEY SPENT GREAT TIME AND TOOK GREAT CARE.

    One other point- while it's helpful to look for a strange "stamped" legal document, NOT EVERYTHING WAS STAMPED. Your relative may have papered that gun as a DEWAT, or "deactivated war trophy." Those transfer TAX FREE. No tax means no stamp. Or, if it was live, it could have been papered during the 1968 Amnesty. I don't believe that those 1968 amnesty forms had stamps either. Finally, the old stamp may have fallen off over time. So while it is helpful to "look for a form with a stamp," you and your well-meaning helpers could inadvertently toss the registration papers aside because they are unstamped. This is going to take TIME. My successful clients STOPPED, READ, AND ANALYZED EVERYTHING.

    4. Okay, so no papers? And you've searched? REALLY searched? Like looking for a misplaced winning lottery ticket searched? The next step most people take is to contact a helpful SOT and/or a NFA-FRIENDLY attorney. Look, there are plenty of attorneys out there. Too many! You do NOT want to pick an attorney who just wants rid of the firearm or, worse yet, an anti-freedom anti-firearm attorney. A friendly SOT may be able to give recommendations. Or ask on firearms-friendly web boards. My clients had no need to tell the whole story–– they just asked for a "gun friendly attorney - bonus for one who is into NFA/Class III or knows more about that." With any luck, you'll get to meet one who even has a few NFA items of their own! Any how, once you get to meet with the attorney or that friendly SOT (do NOT take the firearm to their office!), folks fully explain the situation. They ask that attorney or that friendly SOT to help contact ATF to determine if the firearm is papered. FAMILIES NEVER DO THE CONTACTING THEMSELVES.

    The friendly SOT and/or attorney will call ATF's NFA Branch. They will give the firearm's make, model, type (MG, SBR, DD, etc.) AND COMPLETE SERIAL NUMBER. ATF will punch this into their computer. If it's registered, hooray! If not, there's a problem.

    5. Assuming the firearm is NOT registered, wise families repeat steps #2 and #3. ATF lost plenty of registrations over the years. Should the family find the paperwork, they can prove that it's registered, fix the registry, and life is good. If there's still no paperwork (and the family really, REALLY put your heart and soul into #2 and #3), the firearm is contraband. Contraband can be donated to an acceptable museum or government entity. Some folks have been able to claim a tax write-off. If no one wants the firearm, most folks completely strip the receiver of all parts. The receiver is then either surrendered, torch-cut, or otherwise destroyed.

    6. Families who find paperwork generally have to treat the firearm in accordance with any will. If someone is named in the will, that person gets that firearm tax-free on a Form 5. ATF bends over backwards to help estates with the disposition of legally papered firearms. No, seriously! It's in their (ATF's) best interests to do this to keep the firearm from ending up at a yard sale or sold randomly at a gun show. That said, most families find it in their best interests to keep that SOT handy to assist with the sale, the necessary paperwork, etc. And if nobody is named in a will, the firearm will transfer on a tax-paid Form 4 or, if a DEWAT, on a tax-free Form 5.
     
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    Vasili

    Shooter
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    May 24, 2010
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    Indiana
    Unless his suggestions are to shut the hell up and not tell anyone, I say his advice isn't worth the listening to.

    Probably one of those 'TURN THEM IN TO F TROOP IMMEDIATELY' bootlickers.

    Hm. Read it. Not a bootlicker, but it still pains me to think of anyone giving up war trophies or free market weapons.
     

    VUPDblue

    Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
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    25   0   1
    Mar 20, 2008
    12,885
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    Franklin Township
    Unless his suggestions are to shut the hell up and not tell anyone, I say his advice isn't worth the listening to.

    Probably one of those 'TURN THEM IN TO F TROOP IMMEDIATELY' bootlickers.

    Hm. Read it. Not a bootlicker, but it still pains me to think of anyone giving up war trophies or free market weapons.
    ^^:rolleyes:^^ Why on Earth would I bother posting something that was useless like "turn them in to F Troop immediately"?
    Good info. What's an SOT?

    SOT is Special Occupational Tax. Most folks (me included) use it as slang to refer to an NFA Dealer or Manufacturer because these folks must pay this tax to be in business.
     

    MTC

    Expert
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    SOT= Special Occupational Taxpayer

    The classes of SOT holders:
    Class
    1 - importer of NFA firearms
    2 - manufacturer of NFA firearms
    3 - dealer in NFA firearms

    Please read this FAQ and most questions will be answered.
    FAQ On National Firearms Act Weapons
     

    indykid

    Grandmaster
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    Jan 27, 2008
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    Westfield
    Thank you for that info, but there should be a step 7 to that list.

    Write every member of congress, both state and federal. Demand in a very nice way that our rights be restored. With the removal of that ridiculous machine gun ban, the weapons of our fathers will no longer be illegal. In fact, according to the former supreme law of the land, they are legal. Write congress and remind them that their oath of office swore to uphold that whole document, not just parts of it.
     

    Neo46121

    Sharpshooter
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    Oct 8, 2009
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    Thank you VUPD for posting that information. I have a sneaking feeling PaPaw (RIP) had an NFA goody or two stuffed away that MaMaw still doesnt know about
     

    Vasili

    Shooter
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    May 24, 2010
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    the registry is made for one purpose and one purpose only: to keep track of where to confiscate them.

    otherwise, why not allow another amnesty registration? increase tax volume, keep ATF efforts conserved elsewhere. but it's not gonna happen. current nfa owners don't want the prices of their weapons going down due to bigger supply, and ATF don't want it cause they know that sooner or later, they'll have ever schwarzlose and maxim and mp40 and mag58 torch-cut and in their greedy paws sooner or later. they're just biding time until everyone falls asleep. or until enough people do.
     

    VUPDblue

    Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
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    Every single NFA owner/collector who I know, from simple one-item suppressor owners to multiple $30k WWII era weapon owners, would LOVE to see an amnesty registration. They would rather see the treasures appear on the transferable list rather than head to the smelter. I will concede that the BATFE doesn't want another amnesty, but the general machinegun owner would LOVE to see another amnesty, regardless of their personal vested interest in the MG market.
     

    Vasili

    Shooter
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    May 24, 2010
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    Every single NFA owner/collector who I know, from simple one-item suppressor owners to multiple $30k WWII era weapon owners, would LOVE to see an amnesty registration. They would rather see the treasures appear on the transferable list rather than head to the smelter. I will concede that the BATFE doesn't want another amnesty, but the general machinegun owner would LOVE to see another amnesty, regardless of their personal vested interest in the MG market.

    sure they do.
    and i've got a GREAT deal on the g.w. bridge. slightly used, lease to own, forty year mortgage.
     

    VUPDblue

    Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
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    :rolleyes: I think your tinfoil may be a bit too tight. I've been in the NFA game for a day or two now and all of the folks I meet tell me a different story than the one you propose.
     

    MTC

    Expert
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    Really ..... Theres only 3 different SOTs ? :dunno:
    Don't take it out of context. The purpose of the post and link was to provide info and answers to some of the same questions asked frequently in this forum.

    Every single NFA owner/collector who I know, from simple one-item suppressor owners to multiple $30k WWII era weapon owners, would LOVE to see an amnesty registration. They would rather see the treasures appear on the transferable list rather than head to the smelter. I will concede that the BATFE doesn't want another amnesty, but the general machinegun owner would LOVE to see another amnesty, regardless of their personal vested interest in the MG market.

    +1
     
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    prebans

    Plinker
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    Oct 3, 2010
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    Unless his suggestions are to shut the hell up and not tell anyone, I say his advice isn't worth the listening to.

    Probably one of those 'TURN THEM IN TO F TROOP IMMEDIATELY' bootlickers.

    Hm. Read it. Not a bootlicker, but it still pains me to think of anyone giving up war trophies or free market weapons.

    No, I'm not a bootlicker. I'm a FFL/SOT who successfully fought with ATF to keep a fully transferable machine gun on the registry that they wanted to declare contraband. Why? Because it was improperly registered by the Office of Naval Intelligence through the IRS Miscellaneous Division back in 1943 on behalf of the registrant, the guy who captured it while fighting the Japanese in WW2. I've still got that Japanese Type 99 LMG in my safe, although it wasn't easy or painless to accomplish. Try fixing paperwork errors that are (at that time) 62 years old. It's such fun.

    There are a few other guns I've been able to save with that advice, too. I wish I had the money to afford them all, but at least the families were able to improve their position through resale AND valuable pieces of history were saved. In one case, that advice kept a family in their home by stopping a foreclosure. The gun was expensive enough to pay off a mortgage. I'm proud to have helped them out of the mess of foreclosure and missing paperwork, and I think that their late father would've been happy to know that his daughter and son-in-law were no longer in danger of being homeless.

    I've also still got the letter from the ATF when they started investigating me for having what they considered to be an unregistered machine gun bought from GunBroker. It was the butt end 1/3 of what could have been either an AR15 or a M16 (it wasn't even hollowed out yet). The forging was out of spec, demilled by chopping in half and chopped again through the buttstock ring, and I bought it for around eight bucks as a nifty paper weight. That little adventure took more than a few months to resolve and it wasn't fun either. I'll dig up my old paperweight and post a picture some time. Or if you're ever up here in WI, I'll be happy to show it and the ATF letter to you.

    Bootlicker? You called me out without even knowing what I had to say. That's how freedom banners like the Brady Group act when they see things coming from pro-freedom individuals and groups. They don't read and they don't think; they only condemn and call people names to advance their sick agenda. You just used the anti-freedom playbook on me.

    I'm not going to sit here and turn this into a flame war. That's stupid and it doesn't accomplish a thing. Instead, I'm going to ask you to be different than the freedom banners.

    Always read and think before condemning. Waiting to know what the other person/group has to say always makes your response more valid. It also harms the other side because you're countering their emotion and ignorance with reason and an intelligent response. Mere spouting is easily discounted and does nothing but advance THEIR cause.

    Sincerely,

    Mike
    Distinction Arms, FFL/SOT
     

    VUPDblue

    Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
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    Mar 20, 2008
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    Thanks for joining Mike! It's nice to see an individual on here who will go toe-to-toe with BATFE for all the right reasons! Keep fighting the good fight! :ingo: :ar15:
     

    prebans

    Plinker
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    Oct 3, 2010
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    Original article posted with permission from the author. Thanks Mike!!!

    You're welcome. I hope it helps other people out. The big problem that we gun folk forget is that not everybody is like us. In most cases, families turn up "weird lookin' guns" when cleaning out Gramp's, Dad's, an Uncle's former house. Sometimes it's because they're headed to a nursing home or another type of assisted living facility. Unfortunately, it's usually because they passed on. The family may have a deer hunter or a target shooter, but usually they're not "gun people." They don't know what's what; they just don't want to be on the wrong side of the law.

    That's where we can come in. By lending a helping hand, we have the ability to save history and help people at the same time.

    Thank you VUPD for posting that information. I have a sneaking feeling PaPaw (RIP) had an NFA goody or two stuffed away that MaMaw still doesnt know about

    VERY common. I've had more than one case where the widow saw something and exclaimed "I thought he got rid of that YEARS ago! That old scoundrel..."

    the registry is made for one purpose and one purpose only: to keep track of where to confiscate them.

    In modern times, perhaps. Under the original intent, no.

    Back in 1934, the cost of a Thompson SMG was $200.00 straight out of the hardware store. The tax amount was designed to double the price during a time when $200.00 was many months' wages. It also completely ended interstate transfer of privately held NFA weapons, as double taxation ($200 from owner in state #1 to dealer in state #2, $200 again from dealer is state #2 to buyer in state #2) tripled the price of that Thompson.

    Prior to 922(o), machine guns were undervalued precisely because of that tax. A Mac 10 was $99 and the tax was $200. So who wanted one? Or why turn a $599 Uzi into an impossible-to-sell firearm for an additional $200? Setting aside gun rights for a very short second, 922(o) is also a bad law because it completely nullifies the utility of a $200 transfer tax. $200 for a $99 Mac? That chills buyers! $200 for a $3,500 Mac? Who gives a rip?

    922(o) is bad not only Constitutionally, but because it ruined the original purpose of the 1934 act. (Before anybody reads this incorrectly, I am NOT advocating for the 1934 National Firearms Act. I am advocating for the repeal of 922(o) on both Constitutional grounds and on the grounds of legal ineffectiveness.)

    And we DEFINITELY need another amnesty. I have to turn away far more firearms than I'd like due to lack of paper.

    sure they do.
    and i've got a GREAT deal on the g.w. bridge. slightly used, lease to own, forty year mortgage.

    I'll take a complete loss on my fully transferable C&R Japanese Type 99 LMG (approximate value $14,000 with the accessories I've got for it) and on my pre-86 dealer sample Uzi SMG (approximate value $3,400 with all the accessories I've got for it) to be able to build my own fully transferable fully automatic M60 GPMG any day of the week.

    Mike
    Distinction Arms, FFL/SOT
     
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