Homebuilt Silencer questions

[Notalentbum]

After reading the FAQs here about suppressors, I believe that after filing the proper forms and paying the tax, it is legal for me to make my own suppressor. I am a fairly talented toolmaker and have no doubt that a suppressor is well within my capabilities.
My question is when does whatever I come up with, officially become the suppressor I paid my tax on?
If I was to machine all the pieces from machineable wax to prove out the mechanical design, would that count as my suppressor? How about if I used aluminum to test actual funtion even though final design is meant to be stainless and titanium? If I screw up a few parts in the process, would they have to be destroyed or could they be left on the shelf for other possible uses?

Thanks for any insight into the laws.

Matt

 

[jwh20]

It's my understanding that you may not assemble, or even have the needed parts on hand to assemble a suppressor until you have the actual approved tax stamp from the ATF. So if you intend to begin work in advance, you should intentionally leave a critical part out or incomplete to protect yourself. For example baffles without holes drilled or an end-cap without an opening would be non-functional. The ATF has this goofy idea of "constructive assembly" meaning that if you COULD assemble a suppressor, you in fact HAVE one from their point-of-view. My feeling is that this is not really enforceable since one could reasonable say a box of copper pipe fittings is a suppressor just wanting to spring to life but I don't want to be their test case.

Play it safe and wait for the stamp. But once you have it I don't think there is any limitation on how many iterations of the design you can go through before you have a completed suppressor. Even then the part you mark with the serial number is the "magic" part. But if you decide to replace that part with a new one down the road, how would anyone ever know you made a different one and marked it the same?

 

[CountryBoy19]

Suppressors are a unique thing in the NFA world. The ATF has ruled that even a single suppressor part, on it's own, can be considered a suppressor and therefore you cannot legally have ANY parts made prior to receiving an approved form 1 (stamp). You also may not have ANY spare parts unless they are a consumable part like wipes etc.

I would be VERY cautious of having partially complete parts on hand. It's just not worth the risk. Use your head here. If you have a piece of unfinished tube that is cut to length you're fine. But if you have a tube that is cut to length and is threaded for end-caps you're pushing the limits.

I would also steer clear of prototyping the suppressor from wax etc, and I would definitely not make an aluminum proof of concept prior to making the steel one. Tthat would definitely be considered making a suppressor and then making the steel one would be considered making a 2nd suppressor.

As far as remaking parts while in the process of manufacturing the suppressor you're fine. But any parts that were "goofed up" and could even remotely resemble a suppressor part should be destroyed just to be safe. Once the suppressor is complete the legality of making replacement parts and/or repairing it gets into a gray area.

So if you intend to begin work in advance, you should intentionally leave a critical part out or incomplete to protect yourself. For example baffles without holes drilled or an end-cap without an opening would be non-functional.

This is bad advice because of the way the ATF views suppressor parts. If you have any parts that could be function they are legally a suppressor by themselves so leaving a single critical component out of the assembly will not protect you.

 

[Hop]

I have another thread started in this section about a "ATF Form 1" suppressor.

Flashlights are not illegal.
Threaded tube turned into a "solvent trap" for cleaning a gun is not illegal.
Freeze plugs are not illegal.

Drilling a hole into a freeze plug and inserting it into a flashlight tube that attaches to a gun barrel might just get you 10 years in prison.

People can make crude suppressors out of flashlight tubes and fender washers once they get an approved ATF Form 1 tax stamp.

You can play all you like with threaded end caps and tubing to make a solvent trap. Do not make any baffles without an approved Form 1.

 

[CountryBoy19]

You can play all you like with threaded end caps and tubing to make a solvent trap. Do not make any baffles without an approved Form 1.

You can do so, but I would still caution you to be careful. It's very clear that the intent to make a suppressor is there when there is a pending form 1 that just so happens to match the length of the "solvent trap" and the "solvent trap" just so happens to have a thread pitch that is common for the caliber listed on the Form 1 that you have pending, and the "solvent trap" coincidentally looks exactly like a suppressor. If your end goal really is a solvent trap then make a solvent trap that can't be construed as a suppressor. If your end goal is to somehow "pull the wool over the eyes of the ATF" and start making your suppressor in advance of having the form approved, but call it a "solvent trap" instead then you know what you're doing is illegal and that you're playing with fire. IMHO that sort of shenanigans is stupid... but sometimes you just can't fix stupid...

You're welcome to "play" all you want, I try not to "play" with things that could land me in Federal PMITA prison...

 

[jwh20]

This is bad advice because of the way the ATF views suppressor parts. If you have any parts that could be function they are legally a suppressor by themselves so leaving a single critical component out of the assembly will not protect you.

That's the issue isn't it? There are places selling flashlight tubes and un-drilled freeze plugs. So by what stretch of the imagination are these or just some plain old hardware parts suppressor components. Could the ATF prosecute you for having possession of a MagLite? Yes, they could prosecute you for having a runny nose. Could they convict you? Doubtful but it would be expensive defending yourself. Hence my caution that "IF YOU INTEND TO..." is that you need to be very cautious that if you build or prototype anything, it needs to NOT be a suppressor.

How the heck does ANYONE, ATF included, even reaching, conclude that a threaded end cap or a tube is a suppressor or part.

 

[Notalentbum]

Guys, I have no intention of circumventing the rules. Federal prison is no fun, or so I have heard.
My thoughts are more in terms of experimenting and perfecting what I want in a suppressor. I just don't want to run afoul of the ATF gestapo. I had no intention of doing any machining until my paperwork is done and tax paid.

Matt

 

[Hop]

I have no intent to build anything illegal. I will wait for a permission slip from my overlords. There, I said it. With eforms being approved so quickly it doesn't make sense. Doesn't mean I can't squash a freeze plug with a hammer to see what happens.

Here's some examples of a .gov alphabet agency totally run a muck.
Is a full auto bolt carrier a machine gun?
Is a short AR barrel sitting in a closet without a lower really an SBR?
Is an M16 full auto trigger without an AR to put it in a machine gun?
Is a SIG brace on your AR pistol make it an SBR?
Is a shoe lace really a machine gun?
Is a freeze plug without an engine block to put it in really a suppressor baffle?

I really blame the lefties, our spineless politicians and the il-informed voting governed sheep for getting us into this mess. What's it going to take to get us out? Until/when/if ATF is disbanded I'll play by their stupid rules and not make anything resembling a baffle until my Form 1 comes back approved.

[edit - just saw your reply.]

 

[CountryBoy19]

There are places selling flashlight tubes and un-drilled freeze plugs. So by what stretch of the imagination are these or just some plain old hardware parts suppressor components. Could the ATF prosecute you for having possession of a MagLite? Yes, they could prosecute you for having a runny nose. Could they convict you? Doubtful but it would be expensive defending yourself. Hence my caution that "IF YOU INTEND TO..." is that you need to be very cautious that if you build or prototype anything, it needs to NOT be a suppressor.

I'm not saying you can't have freeze plugs laying around, or even try to experiment with forming them. But to be fair, the OP did mention he is a tool-maker and capable of making a suppressor. Toolmaker = highly qualified machinist. I highly doubt he plans to make a suppressor from freeze-plugs and flashlights. He likely plans to machine the parts from raw stock, and several earlier posts (yours included) alluded to the fact that he could "play around" and "just leave out one of the important components" or "don't drill the hole in the baffle". I'm only saying that is bad advice to give; even if the OP doesn't plan to circumvent the law, others that read this thread may not realize that it's bad advice and they may do so. A k-baffle is very clearly a k-baffle with our without a hole and it would be a near slam dunk prosecution. An omega-baffle without some of the cut-outs is still and omega baffle. Can you find a "legit use" for either of those that you would trust to keep you out of prison?

How the heck does ANYONE, ATF included, even reaching, conclude that a threaded end cap or a tube is a suppressor or part.

Legal precedent leftover from an era where the ATF was a lot less opposed and bad legal precedent was permitted (by inaction) to come to be.

You can bet your hind end the ATF would be more than happy to prosecute you if you have a tube + baffles that is just missing the end-caps, even if the baffles don't have a hole in them. Likewise a tube and end-caps but just missing the baffles. Do you think this is their first rodeo? All they have to prove is that the parts were intended for a complete suppressor. It doesn't have to be functional; "suppressor parts" can be considered a suppressor all by themselves even in a non-functional state.

Yes, they could prosecute you for having a runny nose. Could they convict you? Doubtful but it would be expensive defending yourself.

And there is the real key. They don't have to win by convicting you, they can "win" by financially ruining you. They have limitless resources to prosecute you, you don't have limitless resources to defend yourself.


And with that, I'm out. I'm not getting into an argument. I corrected the misinformation to hopefully keep fellow INGO members from winding up in trouble, and I'm done here. If you think it might be a bad idea, it probably is. If you have to stretch for "excuses" to have a certain part, it's probably a bad idea to have them.

 

[jwh20]

I'm not sure we're really disagreeing here. Unless you're just asking for trouble, it's not worth the risk. Fill out the forms, pay the tax, and wait for the stamp.

That being said, if the ATF is coming after you for having a threaded tube or an undrilled circular piece of metal that that resembles a suppressor baffle, whether you have applied for a tax stamp or not, then your legal problems go way beyond this specific item. I.e., they are just piling on charges now since you did something else to draw their attention. Indeed by the letter of their rulings, just about anything you can buy at a hardware store today could be considered a suppressor component. But that's not the law, it's just their ever changing B.S.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I'm not sure we're really disagreeing here. Unless you're just asking for trouble, it's not worth the risk. Fill out the forms, pay the tax, and wait for the stamp.

That being said, if the ATF is coming after you for having a threaded tube or an undrilled circular piece of metal that that resembles a suppressor baffle, whether you have applied for a tax stamp or not, then your legal problems go way beyond this specific item. I.e., they are just piling on charges now since you did something else to draw their attention.

I used to feel the same way, but with more and more of these "SWATing" things going down, no-knock raids on the wrong house, and various other instances where otherwise innocent people find themselves in the middle of a raid etc (whether it's properly warranted or not), I'm not going to take that risk. I know I'm not breaking the law, but the police don't so they are treating me like a potential criminal from the instant my name/house hits their radar no matter how accurate their information is. If the police wind up at my house by mistake, IIRC, anything they find inside is inadmissible due to the fact they didn't have a warrant; but if they wind up with a warrant on faulty information then you may find yourself in a legal battle.

This is probably along the same lines as 922r compliance. I've never heard of anybody (an individual) being prosecuted for that alone, but it's in the law and we all comply with it because they can prosecute if they want to. Even if the traditional thought is "that's just an add-on charge" I don't like to risk those things.

 

[Brian Ski]

Guys, I have no intention of circumventing the rules. Federal prison is no fun, or so I have heard.
My thoughts are more in terms of experimenting and perfecting what I want in a suppressor. I just don't want to run afoul of the ATF gestapo. I had no intention of doing any machining until my paperwork is done and tax paid.

Matt

Well there are 2 ways of doing it. Each has its pluses and minuses...

One is to get a form 1 ($200 stamp) and make a suppressor. Then if it is not what you want file another form and make another one. ATF does not like any spare parts around. One thing they did agree on was you can have spare adapters to fit on different barrels. Yea gets expensive to experiment. On the other hand since you are the manufacturer you can replace the baffles. You would have to take out the old ones and destroy them. Then build new ones. Now if the old ones were better there is no going back. Just can't get lazy and save the old ones just in case.

The other is to get a manufacturing license and experiment all you want. I am not sure what they go for. I know it is a recurrent (yearly??) fee and nothing is getting cheaper. Guessing $1000 a year, but just a pure guess, I could be way off.

 

[Trigger Time]

Well there are 2 ways of doing it. Each has its pluses and minuses...

One is to get a form 4 ($200 stamp) and make a suppressor. Then if it is not what you want file another form and make another one. ATF does not like any spare parts around. One thing they did agree on was you can have spare adapters to fit on different barrels. Yea gets expensive to experiment. On the other hand since you are the manufacturer you can replace the baffles. You would have to take out the old ones and destroy them. Then build new ones. Now if the old ones were better there is no going back. Just can't get lazy and save the old ones just in case.

The other is to get a manufacturing license and experiment all you want. I am not sure what they go for. I know it is a recurrent (yearly??) fee and nothing is getting cheaper. Guessing $1000 a year, but just a pure guess, I could be way off.

It's a form1 to make it not a form 4
and I think the manufacturing license fee is now over $3k

 

[CountryBoy19]

One is to get a form 1 ($200 stamp) and make a suppressor. Then if it is not what you want file another form and make another one. ATF does not like any spare parts around.

FTFY

One thing they did agree on was you can have spare adapters to fit on different barrels.

If I'm not mistaken you can have a general thread adapter (like a 1/2-28 to 5/8-24) or multiple mounts for a QD suppressor as long as the mount serves another purpose other than solely for mounting a suppressor (that would make it a suppressor part). IE, plain mount that serves no other purpose outside of mounting a suppressor, you can only have one. Mount that doubles as a brake and you can have as many as you want.

The no-go area would be having multiple end-caps or mounts that serve only to mount the suppressor.

On the other hand since you are the manufacturer you can replace the baffles. You would have to take out the old ones and destroy them. Then build new ones.

Citation please. This is definitely a gray area but it contradicts what I've found as the "generally acknowledged understanding" of this question.

I think the critical difference, as I know it, is that you are NOT the manufacturer. A "manufacturer", when dealing with NFA, is a specific title that refers to a licensed manufacturer (one with an FFL & paid SOT). You are a maker, which is different, and does not give you legal authority to make replacement baffles or conduct repairs, even if you originally made the can. The legality of making suppressor parts or suppressor repairs is only granted to "manufacturers" and I don't believe a Form 1 makes you a manufacturer, it makes you a "maker".

Clear as mud right?

Of course, with the way the ATF changes their minds I guess all it takes is a single letter to change that. Have you seen something like this in a letter?

The other is to get a manufacturing license and experiment all you want. I am not sure what they go for. I know it is a recurrent (yearly??) fee and nothing is getting cheaper. Guessing $1000 a year, but just a pure guess, I could be way off.

I believe after ITAR and all the other fees/permits are paid you're looking at ~$3,000 per year...

 

[Brian Ski]

It's a form1 to make it not a form 4
and I think the manufacturing license fee is now over $3k

Thank you and corrected!!!

 

[Brian Ski]

If I'm not mistaken you can have a general thread adapter (like a 1/2-28 to 5/8-24) or multiple mounts for a QD suppressor as long as the mount serves another purpose other than solely for mounting a suppressor (that would make it a suppressor part). IE, plain mount that serves no other purpose outside of mounting a suppressor, you can only have one. Mount that doubles as a brake and you can have as many as you want.

The no-go area would be having multiple end-caps or mounts that serve only to mount the suppressor.

The BATF has gone back n forth as to what is legal. To many gray areas. Just like posted above, if they are lookign to get you for something they always can find something. This is what I was talking about as far as suppressor adapters. About half way down. I trust Bowers on them.
http://www.subguns.org/products/cans/SMG/

 

[Brian Ski]

Citation please. This is definitely a gray area but it contradicts what I've found as the "generally acknowledged understanding" of this question.

I think the critical difference, as I know it, is that you are NOT the manufacturer. A "manufacturer", when dealing with NFA, is a specific title that refers to a licensed manufacturer (one with an FFL & paid SOT). You are a maker, which is different, and does not give you legal authority to make replacement baffles or conduct repairs, even if you originally made the can. The legality of making suppressor parts or suppressor repairs is only granted to "manufacturers" and I don't believe a Form 1 makes you a manufacturer, it makes you a "maker".

Clear as mud right?

Of course, with the way the ATF changes their minds I guess all it takes is a single letter to change that. Have you seen something like this in a letter?

No I do not have any letter. But as you said clear as mud. Even if you have a letter the BATF is a similar office like the IRS, If they give you something is writing you still cannot hold them to it.

I did not know there was a difference between a manufacturer and a maker. It sounds like the easiest was is to file a form 1 for each model or change of suppressor. Sometimes it is easier and cheaper to buy a quality item from a reliable manufacturer to begin with. I know it cuts out the learning.

 

[Hop]

The mud is so clear that even commercial manufacturers are selling end caps that you can swap out - threaded to QD. These are used by a LOT of rimfire Form1 builders now.

I asked YHM is I could get one for my 3 lug Wraith and they said no. Not allowed. I told them about the Griffin... and got no comment.

Silencer Accessories

 

[CountryBoy19]

The mud is so clear that even commercial manufacturers are selling end caps that you can swap out - threaded to QD. These are used by a LOT of rimfire Form1 builders now.

I asked YHM is I could get one for my 3 lug Wraith and they said no. Not allowed. I told them about the Griffin... and got no comment.

Silencer Accessories

Wow, I would say the ATF has changed their minds or Griffin is pushing their luck. FWIW, YHM is probably just over cautious since they got a bit of a scolding years ago because the ATF determined that their threaded QD mounts were suppressor parts on their own and therefore they couldn't sell spares. That's why manufacturers started making their threaded QD mounts as brakes as well, and they were no longer considered suppressor parts because they performed a secondary function when the suppressor was not attached.

 

[engineerpower]

If the police wind up at my house by mistake, IIRC, anything they find inside is inadmissible due to the fact they didn't have a warrant; but if they wind up with a warrant on faulty information then you may find yourself in a legal battle.

I read recently, that it has been upheld that even if an officer is acting on faulty or falsified information, their conducting a stop, arrest, search, etc. is not considered by the court to be a crime. If they themselves did not falsify affidavits, they are assumed to be operating in "good faith", are given "qualified immunity" against civil or criminal liability, and the evidence is valid. Even a falsified "anonymous tip" will lead to an upheld conviction, and does everyday.

Here's a good link, check out the examples: Police Searches: Improperly Issued Warrants | Nolo.com

And: Police Chief Magazine - View Article

That's part of why the no-knock raids are such a disaster: the team kicking in your door and shooting Grandma for trying to protect the baby suffers no liability for their actions. In many places, the raid teams are designated and have no prior involvement with the case before receiving the call to go kick in your door. Why should they care if they gun down your kid?