SBR idiot arrested at Gun Show...

[CulpeperMM]

Originally Posted by Scutter01

I'm hoping for jury nullification, personally.

+1

[OneBadV8]

Originally Posted by shooter521

I was sure this thread was going to be about this guy:
http://ingunowners.com/forums/class_...he_1500_a.html

Hopefully a similar fate befell him...

Yep, me too!

[IndyGunworks]

why was the atf at the gun show? me thinks they had been watching him for a while

[shooter521]

Originally Posted by IndyGunworks

why was the atf at the gun show?

Are you serious? Rightly or wrongly, guns and the business of guns is ATF's domain. They are at pretty much every Indy 1500 in various capacities; some low profile, others not.

[evansvillethompsongunner]

Originally Posted by IndyGunworks

why was the atf at the gun show? me thinks they had been watching him for a while

You kidding?

ANY show's got at least one ATF; big shows have more.

Knob Creek has no fewer than five at the April shoot; no fewer than four at the October shoot.... overheard that comment from a Knob Creek RSO chatting with a shooter on the line in between matches. Then again, biggest military/Class III show in the country is bound to attract some Federal attention.

But I would lay a month's pay that even the smallest shows still have at least one plainclothes agent present. Hell, the only reason for their existence is revenue-enhancement through enforcement... without keeping an eye out on people with rifle barrels shorter than 16" or overall rifle lengths of 26", how are they going to justify their budget?

Nowadays, $200 for an NFA stamp and $5 for an AOW isn't much, but back in '34, you could buy a good rifle for $10 or $20.
So this was anathema to most people, and often not enforced except against the wealthy, whom the ATF knew could pay the tax... no point trying to collect what was at that time a princely sum from a moonshiner, say, who might only make $50 every couple of months... but with inflation, and the encroachment of mission creep, it's become a real, if less and less expensive, problem.

The bigger problem is the direct un-Constitutionality of the '34/'68/'86 regulations, IMO:

"...shall not be infringed."

However, I'm not about to try to overturn the laws, no matter how illegitimate they might be (and there's little doubt in my mind that they are in fact, un-Constitutional) or to be a hero. No, sirree, I'll leave the caselaw for someone who has the time, money, and patience to deal with that... it wasn't until 1916 that we "realized" that we all have to pay Income Tax (which is a direct capitation tax, which is also explicitly verboten by the Constitution, interestingly enough).

I do, however, recommend the book Unintended Consequences by John Ross, which hopefully is redundant advice, as everyone, particularly firearms owners, should have read by now.... it's historical fiction, but provides some of the best and most accurate history of the gun laws and their progression that I've ever come across. Had one history professor in college who had this as part of the course curriculum despite a few mumbles from the Board of Trustees....

[Indy_Guy_77]

There are probably ATF agents at EVERY gun show...

And it's MY understanding that the paperwork, or copies of the paperwork, must be presented to any inquiring LEO. But I'm not sure of this at all. I know that it's required that the paperwork (or copy) accompany the firearm / suppressor in question, but not sure on if a local LEO are responsible for that kind of thing or not.

And Shooter521, I'm smart enough to know not to duplicate a thread. I just chose my thread title carefully so as to make people THINK that I had.

Sneaky, eh?

-J-

[rvb]

Originally Posted by Indy_Guy_77

There are probably ATF agents at EVERY gun show...

And it's MY understanding that the paperwork, or copies of the paperwork, must be presented to any inquiring LEO. But I'm not sure of this at all. I know that it's required that the paperwork (or copy) accompany the firearm / suppressor in question, but not sure on if a local LEO are responsible for that kind of thing or not.

-J-

Been a while since I really read up on it so take my internet rumors for what they are, but I believe it is actually NOT required that the paperwork be with the gun at all times. However, the burdon of proof is on the accused ("affirmative defense"), not the accusor... so it's in your best interest to keep copies handy. I keep originals safe as the NFRTR has been proven to not be complete (even reports of disgruntled employees destroying records before being fired or quiting).

And yes, local LEO are responsible for that kind of thing since there are state and local laws against most NFA items, most with the affirmative defense of registration in the NFRTR.

Kinda like your IN carry permit... not required to be ON you, but can prevent an arrest and siesure of the gun if accused of carrying illegally.

A real nit: The NFA forms are actually tax docs, so technically you don't "have" to share with anyone (incl LEO) other than ATF agents... but again, it's probably in your best interest...

-rvb

NFA, unconstitutional and needs repealed.

-rbv

[2ADMNLOVER]

Did the guy not know the the rifle was illegal or did he just not care ?

[CountryBoy19]

Originally Posted by rvb

Kinda like your IN carry permit... not required to be ON you, but can prevent an arrest and siesure of the gun if accused of carrying illegally.

A real nit: The NFA forms are actually tax docs, so technically you don't "have" to share with anyone (incl LEO) other than ATF agents... but again, it's probably in your best interest...

+1 ^^^^^ This is what I've always been told. Just like your LTCH, the law doesn't say it HAS to be on your person, but it is generally a good idea.

And the forms only have to be presented to an agent of the ATF. Sure, a regular LEO can ask, but you don't have to tell.

[alfahornet]

Originally Posted by CountryBoy19

And the forms only have to be presented to an agent of the ATF. Sure, a regular LEO can ask, but you don't have to tell.

Just out of curiosity are there any IC issues regarding SBRs? I always assumed there are (but didn't see anything in a quick search), you would still have to show that you have it legally. If there aren't then you're correct, BUT I'd still show it to them to avoid any hassles.