INGunOwners - Carry Issues and Self Defense http://ingunowners.com/forums Discuss both concealed and open carry issues that gun owners face in the State of Indiana and self defense en Fri, 20 Nov 2009 21:37:33 GMT vBulletin 60 http://ingunowners.com/forums/images/styles/Greenstar/misc/rss.jpg INGunOwners - Carry Issues and Self Defense http://ingunowners.com/forums How do you carry? http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62414-how_do_you_carry.html Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:38:27 GMT I thought I had seen a thread at one point about how people carry, but I can't find it.

Any way! I've been trying the CC in the small of my back when I go out and it's not working for me. I have a sensitive spine so the extra pressure my carry gun adds (which is almost none really) makes walking more painful than it already is. I have a Uncle Mikes holster that's ambidextrous. I've tried CC on my hip, but it sticks out so much it might as well be OC. I could probably ditch the holster and carry in my boot, but that might get awkward if it slips down to much.

So how do you carry? Should I just OC all the time? ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense CombatVet http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62414-how_do_you_carry.html Almost Finished Product: Speech Advocating Handgun Carry http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62407-almost_finished_product_speech_advocating_handgun_carry.html Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:34:30 GMT Speech is almost done, just need to iron out the little things. Let me know if you think anything is missing or should be changed. Topic: The licensed carrying of a handgun is beneficial to the overall safety of both the individual and the public, and should be permitted everywhere. Written by John H. Nov. 2009 *_Introduction_* The carrying of a handgun by a private citizen is an issue that is hotly contested throughout the United States. Advocates on both sides constantly lobby for the laws governing the issue to be changed in their favor. Some opponents to concealed carry, such as John Shanks of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, argue that “immediate access and availability enhances chances for firearms violence…a situation that would not normally result in deadly violence can be tragic.” However, statistics prove conclusively that the reported murder rate is significantly lower in states which allow carrying than those which do not, even taking into account population differences. While some form of handgun carry is legal in most states, public perception of those who choose to do so remains deplorably warped. The licensed carrying of a handgun by law-abiding citizens in beneficial to the overall safety of both the individual and the public, and should be permitted in all places, including schools, banks, government buildings, and post offices. Colleges and universities in particular should allow legal handgun carry. *_Background Information_* First, some background information. Currently, 48 states offer some form of concealed carry license. 39 states offer a “shall-issue” permit, which means that officials must not deny the applicant a permit, unless they find reason to do so. Such reasons typically include having been convicted of a felony, such as domestic battery, or having a history of mental illness. The remaining nine states offer what is called “may-issue” permits. The laws of these states require that the applicant show a specific need. Some of these nine states are “shall-issue” in practice, such as Alabama and Connecticut, while others are “almost non-issue”. This means that in states such as New York and New Jersey, although the state law allows the issuance of permits, they are rarely handed out. The last two states, Vermont and Alaska, allow concealed carry without a license as a constitutional right. The only provisions are that the carrier is a non-felon at least of at least 16 or 21 years of age respectively. *_Murder by Numbers_* Looking at the figures gathered by the FBI’s Crime in the United States Report, we see that 14,180 people were slain in 2008. 924 homicides were committed during robbery and 87 during burglary. This includes store clerks, bank tellers, and home invasions. 19 murders resulted from car-jackings and 23 rape victims were killed by their attackers. This next set of data shows justifiable homicide figures for the past four years. I call your attention to the fine print at the bottom. “The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felon, by a private citizen.” That means that in 2008, 161 people were thrust into life threatening situations and had made the choice not to be a victim. Most importantly, they had the ability to protect themselves from an otherwise deadly fate. *_Defensive Handgun Use_* According to a study conducted by Dr. Gary Kleck, criminologists at Florida State University, there are approximately two million defensive gun uses in the US per year by law abiding citizens. This includes scaring off wrongdoers with the presence of a gun, as well as situations where the gun is actually used. These instances occur every day by people of all walks of life. The New York Times reported on August 13th of this year that a 72 year old Harlem store owner shot and killed two would-be robbers and wounded another two. He gave the crooks the money, and only drew his shotgun when they began pistol whipping one of his employees. In May 2004, Indianapolis pizza delivery man Ronald B. Honeycutt was beset by an armed (and unlicensed) who intended to rob him at gunpoint. He drew his own pistol and dispatched the threat. Two months before in Northern Indiana, Daniel L. Floyd shot his neighbor after the neighbor approached him swinging an ax handle, despite repeated requests by Floyd to stop. Both Honeycutt and Floyd were law abiding holders of handgun carry licenses, and protected themselves within the limits of the law. No charges were filed against either man. *Compare and Contrast* Let’s compare the statistics of New Jersey and South Dakota, two states with vastly different views on gun control.New Jersey is a state which has restrictive, suffocating legislature, tedious and exhaustive purchasing procedures which deter most law abiding citizens from purchasing a handgun. According to a study by CQ Press in 2008, New Jersey ranked 20th in the country as safest state based on murder rates. New Jersey is a “may-issue state”, however, their prohibitive views on concealed carry prevents most citizens from obtaining a permit. In 2008, despite their tough gun laws, there were 376 murders. Of those 376 murders, 236 were perpetrated using firearms. Of the 236 firearm-related murders, 202 of them were with handguns, according to the FBI CIUS. Obviously, keeping handguns out of the hands of citizens hasn’t slowed their use in crimes. New Jersey has not published their statewide percentage of CC permit holders. Now we’ll take a look at South Dakota. South Dakota is ranked 5th safest state in terms of murder rates, and is a “shall-issue” state. They also boast the highest percentage of permit holders, with 7.45% of the population being armed. Predictably, their murder rates were far lower, at 22 in 2008. Of the 22 homicides, 13 used firearms. And of those 13 firearm-related murders, only 4 involved the use of a handgun. Let’s not forget Vermont. One of only two states in which no carry license is required, Vermont is even safer than South Dakota ranking in at 4th safest state. Their murder rate is 17 total. 8 of their 17 murders were with firearms, and only 4 were with handguns. It would seem that not requiring a license for Vermonters works fairly well for them. Of course, any opponent of concealed carry would waste no time in pointing out that the 2008 populations of New Jersey (8,682,661) and South Dakota (804,194) are vastly different, thus rendering these facts unusable. However, if South Dakota had the population of New Jersey, they would have had 238 murders total (rounded up) in 2008. That is 138 less murders than New Jersey’s 376 total, whose gun laws are significantly more stringent than South Dakota. If we did the math just using the handgun numbers, South Dakota would have only 44 murders caused by handguns, 158 less than New Jersey’s 202. 138 or 158 less lives lost is a very important number, and that allowing law-abiding citizens to carry in a state like New Jersey certainly can’t hurt their dismal violent crime rate. *_Police Response Times_* Police officers make every effort to respond to calls as quickly as possible. However, they must first be called, then get in their cars, and then drive to the scene. This all takes precious time. A woman being accosted by a potential rapist in an alley doesn’t have time to take out her cell phone, call police, giver her location and wait patiently for police to find her. Let’s take a look at a report from the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics. Here we can see that for violent crimes including robbery, aggravated assault and simple assault, police response time, on average, was 27.5 percent within the first 5 minutes, 34 percent 6-11 minutes, and 25.5 percent 11 minutes-an hour. These chilling numbers raise the question, “what can happen in the first 5 minutes?” Very likely, the victim would have already been beaten or robbed, perhaps killed, by the time police are able to arrive. I ask you to examine this next set of data, conducted by the FBI Crime in the US report. This shows the number of homicides deemed justifiable by the law. However, I ask that you look again at the text at the bottom of the table. It reads, “The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.” These numbers represent real, law-abiding citizens who only used their firearms to stop someone bent on taking their life. As citizens of the United States, we have the right to protect our lives and property. Not everyone chooses be armed, but proponents of concealed carry advocate the *choice* to do so if one wishes, as well as to not be judged for their decision to defend themselves. *_Gun Free Zones_* Although most states do allow some form of carry, places called “gun-free zones” were established with the Crime Control Act of 1990. In such zones, the law requires citizens to disarm before entering the premises. Some examples of gun-free zones are; government buildings such as post offices and capitol buildings; public events like state fairs and sports events, elementary and secondary schools, preventing teachers from carrying licensed firearms in case of an emergency. The phrase “going postal” has been popularized in American slang, but has a deadly origin. The phrase is derived from at least 20 workplace rage incidents at post offices from 1983 onward. These are all cases in which postal workers have shot and killed their managers, fellow workers, and members of the police or general public. Most university and college regulations also prohibit carrying concealed weapons on campus. The problem with areas such as this is that only those who obey the law will disarm. An individual seeking to do harm will enter such an area with the comforting knowledge that encountering armed opposition will be unlikely. The lack of rationality by lawmakers in this department has had fatal consequences over the years. *_Columbine and Virginia Tech_* Two schools in particular suffered from the flawed logic of gun-free zones. The Columbine High School and Virginia Tech University Massacres are the two worst school shootings in US history. The 1999 Columbine Massacre, lasting less than an hour, resulted in thirteen people killed and 24 wounded at the hands of Harris and Klebold. Since high schools are gun free zones, there were no armed teachers or administrators who may have been able to stop the duo’s terrible actions. Seung-Hui Cho, the perpetrator of the 2007 Virginia Tech Massacre, killed 33 people singlehandedly, injuring an additional 23. His rampage lasted from 7:15am to 5:30pm. The reason he was able to roam the campus indiscriminately murdering innocent people for over 10 hours is that all of his victims were defenseless. Ken Stanton, a columnist for Virginia Tech’s Collegiate Times, Virginia Tech student, and administrator of the Students for Conceal Carry on Campus organization, told me that he estimates there are between 300-400 concealed carry permit holders who attend Virginia Tech. All it would have taken was *one* *armed citizen* and Cho’s wanton disregard for human life would have ended much sooner than ten hours, with a significantly lower death toll. Teachers at Columbine and students at Virginia Tech should not have been denied the ability to shoot these murderers to prevent them from spilling more blood. Instead, they had to wait until the violent murderers shot themselves for the carnage to end. Universities continue to be one of the gravest areas of concern, since unlike workplaces and government buildings; they are independently operated and highly public places. As opposed to high schools, college students over 21 are of age to carry, and many already hold permits to do so. However, due to senseless regulations enacted by universities, they are prohibited from having the means to defend themselves at any given time. *_Guns on Campuses_* The opponents to campus carry have an endless array of arguments against students carrying their legally licensed weapons at school. Let’s take a look at some of their favorite contentions: *Guns on campus would lead to an escalation of crime:* Carrying concealed weapons on campus has been permitted since fall 2006 at 20 campuses of nine public colleges in Utah, Colorado State University since 2003, and at the Blue Ridge Community College since 1996. With concealed carry allowed on these campuses for a combined total of 100 semesters, none of these schools has experienced a single incident of gun violence or accidents. Similarly, none of the state which permit carrying has seen an increase in gun violence since legalizing concealed carry, even though carriers wear their guns in places such as food stores, movie theaters, office buildings, shopping malls, churches, restaurants and banks. Furthermore, studies done at by University of Maryland professor John Lott and University of Georgia professor David Mustard, as well as those done by various state agencies, show that concealed license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes. *A student with a gun could “snap” and go on a killing spree:* According to a report by the Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center on the prevention of targeted violence in schools, the notion of a previously sane, well-adjusted person “snapping” into a violent frenzy is not supported by case evidence. The study concluded that a person’s descent towards violent acts is typically accompanied with numerous warning signs. *_Conclusion_* Most citizens who choose to carry a handgun are the opposite of wild, dangerous people. They are shown statistically to be more level headed than non-carrying people, and have proven this is practical terms by keeping their handguns on them every day, not using them unless they feel their lives are in immediate jeopardy. People who carry have a positive impact on their communities, not because they go looking for criminals trying to be police, but because they go about their day prepared to respond to those who intend to do them harm. They do this despite the fact that the population at large views them as crazy or paranoid. It would have been a blessing to have had an armed civilian at Virginia Tech or Fort Hood, or in any of the thousands of store robberies where clerks are killed each year. The presence of a private citizen with a handgun may not help stop violence 100% of the time, but there has never been a case where it hurt. Those of you who do not carry a gun should be thankful that there are people willing to shoulder that responsibility. If there is ever a day where you find yourself face to face with a criminal, sever seconds away from death, a good guy with a gun nearby can’t help but increase your chance to survive. Speech is almost done, just need to iron out the little things. Let me know if you think anything is missing or should be changed.

Topic: The licensed carrying of a handgun is beneficial to the overall safety of both the individual and the public, and should be permitted everywhere.
Written by John H. Nov. 2009

Introduction

The carrying of a handgun by a private citizen is an issue that is hotly contested throughout the United States. Advocates on both sides constantly lobby for the laws governing the issue to be changed in their favor. Some opponents to concealed carry, such as John Shanks of the Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence, argue that “immediate access and availability enhances chances for firearms violence…a situation that would not normally result in deadly violence can be tragic.” However, statistics prove conclusively that the reported murder rate is significantly lower in states which allow carrying than those which do not, even taking into account population differences. While some form of handgun carry is legal in most states, public perception of those who choose to do so remains deplorably warped. The licensed carrying of a handgun by law-abiding citizens in beneficial to the overall safety of both the individual and the public, and should be permitted in all places, including schools, banks, government buildings, and post offices. Colleges and universities in particular should allow legal handgun carry.


Background Information


First, some background information. Currently, 48 states offer some form of concealed carry license. 39 states offer a “shall-issue” permit, which means that officials must not deny the applicant a permit, unless they find reason to do so. Such reasons typically include having been convicted of a felony, such as domestic battery, or having a history of mental illness. The remaining nine states offer what is called “may-issue” permits. The laws of these states require that the applicant show a specific need. Some of these nine states are “shall-issue” in practice, such as Alabama and Connecticut, while others are “almost non-issue”. This means that in states such as New York and New Jersey, although the state law allows the issuance of permits, they are rarely handed out. The last two states, Vermont and Alaska, allow concealed carry without a license as a constitutional right. The only provisions are that the carrier is a non-felon at least of at least 16 or 21 years of age respectively.


Murder by Numbers


Looking at the figures gathered by the FBI’s Crime in the United States Report, we see that 14,180 people were slain in 2008. 924 homicides were committed during robbery and 87 during burglary. This includes store clerks, bank tellers, and home invasions. 19 murders resulted from car-jackings and 23 rape victims were killed by their attackers.
This next set of data shows justifiable homicide figures for the past four years. I call your attention to the fine print at the bottom. “The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felon, by a private citizen.” That means that in 2008, 161 people were thrust into life threatening situations and had made the choice not to be a victim. Most importantly, they had the ability to protect themselves from an otherwise deadly fate.


Defensive Handgun Use


According to a study conducted by Dr. Gary Kleck, criminologists at Florida State University, there are approximately two million defensive gun uses in the US per year by law abiding citizens. This includes scaring off wrongdoers with the presence of a gun, as well as situations where the gun is actually used. These instances occur every day by people of all walks of life. The New York Times reported on August 13th of this year that a 72 year old Harlem store owner shot and killed two would-be robbers and wounded another two. He gave the crooks the money, and only drew his shotgun when they began pistol whipping one of his employees. In May 2004, Indianapolis pizza delivery man Ronald B. Honeycutt was beset by an armed (and unlicensed) who intended to rob him at gunpoint. He drew his own pistol and dispatched the threat. Two months before in Northern Indiana, Daniel L. Floyd shot his neighbor after the neighbor approached him swinging an ax handle, despite repeated requests by Floyd to stop. Both Honeycutt and Floyd were law abiding holders of handgun carry licenses, and protected themselves within the limits of the law. No charges were filed against either man.


Compare and Contrast

Let’s compare the statistics of New Jersey and South Dakota, two states with vastly different views on gun control.New Jersey is a state which has restrictive, suffocating legislature, tedious and exhaustive purchasing procedures which deter most law abiding citizens from purchasing a handgun. According to a study by CQ Press in 2008, New Jersey ranked 20th in the country as safest state based on murder rates. New Jersey is a “may-issue state”, however, their prohibitive views on concealed carry prevents most citizens from obtaining a permit. In 2008, despite their tough gun laws, there were 376 murders. Of those 376 murders, 236 were perpetrated using firearms. Of the 236 firearm-related murders, 202 of them were with handguns, according to the FBI CIUS. Obviously, keeping handguns out of the hands of citizens hasn’t slowed their use in crimes. New Jersey has not published their statewide percentage of CC permit holders.
Now we’ll take a look at South Dakota. South Dakota is ranked 5th safest state in terms of murder rates, and is a “shall-issue” state. They also boast the highest percentage of permit holders, with 7.45% of the population being armed. Predictably, their murder rates were far lower, at 22 in 2008. Of the 22 homicides, 13 used firearms. And of those 13 firearm-related murders, only 4 involved the use of a handgun.
Let’s not forget Vermont. One of only two states in which no carry license is required, Vermont is even safer than South Dakota ranking in at 4th safest state. Their murder rate is 17 total. 8 of their 17 murders were with firearms, and only 4 were with handguns. It would seem that not requiring a license for Vermonters works fairly well for them.
Of course, any opponent of concealed carry would waste no time in pointing out that the 2008 populations of New Jersey (8,682,661) and South Dakota (804,194) are vastly different, thus rendering these facts unusable. However, if South Dakota had the population of New Jersey, they would have had 238 murders total (rounded up) in 2008. That is 138 less murders than New Jersey’s 376 total, whose gun laws are significantly more stringent than South Dakota. If we did the math just using the handgun numbers, South Dakota would have only 44 murders caused by handguns, 158 less than New Jersey’s 202. 138 or 158 less lives lost is a very important number, and that allowing law-abiding citizens to carry in a state like New Jersey certainly can’t hurt their dismal violent crime rate.


Police Response Times


Police officers make every effort to respond to calls as quickly as possible. However, they must first be called, then get in their cars, and then drive to the scene. This all takes precious time. A woman being accosted by a potential rapist in an alley doesn’t have time to take out her cell phone, call police, giver her location and wait patiently for police to find her. Let’s take a look at a report from the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics. Here we can see that for violent crimes including robbery, aggravated assault and simple assault, police response time, on average, was 27.5 percent within the first 5 minutes, 34 percent 6-11 minutes, and 25.5 percent 11 minutes-an hour.
These chilling numbers raise the question, “what can happen in the first 5 minutes?” Very likely, the victim would have already been beaten or robbed, perhaps killed, by the time police are able to arrive. I ask you to examine this next set of data, conducted by the FBI Crime in the US report. This shows the number of homicides deemed justifiable by the law. However, I ask that you look again at the text at the bottom of the table. It reads, “The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.” These numbers represent real, law-abiding citizens who only used their firearms to stop someone bent on taking their life. As citizens of the United States, we have the right to protect our lives and property. Not everyone chooses be armed, but proponents of concealed carry advocate the choice to do so if one wishes, as well as to not be judged for their decision to defend themselves.


Gun Free Zones


Although most states do allow some form of carry, places called “gun-free zones” were established with the Crime Control Act of 1990. In such zones, the law requires citizens to disarm before entering the premises. Some examples of gun-free zones are; government buildings such as post offices and capitol buildings; public events like state fairs and sports events, elementary and secondary schools, preventing teachers from carrying licensed firearms in case of an emergency. The phrase “going postal” has been popularized in American slang, but has a deadly origin. The phrase is derived from at least 20 workplace rage incidents at post offices from 1983 onward. These are all cases in which postal workers have shot and killed their managers, fellow workers, and members of the police or general public. Most university and college regulations also prohibit carrying concealed weapons on campus.
The problem with areas such as this is that only those who obey the law will disarm. An individual seeking to do harm will enter such an area with the comforting knowledge that encountering armed opposition will be unlikely. The lack of rationality by lawmakers in this department has had fatal consequences over the years.


Columbine and Virginia Tech


Two schools in particular suffered from the flawed logic of gun-free zones. The Columbine High School and Virginia Tech University Massacres are the two worst school shootings in US history. The 1999 Columbine Massacre, lasting less than an hour, resulted in thirteen people killed and 24 wounded at the hands of Harris and Klebold. Since high schools are gun free zones, there were no armed teachers or administrators who may have been able to stop the duo’s terrible actions. Seung-Hui Cho, the perpetrator of the 2007 Virginia Tech Massacre, killed 33 people singlehandedly, injuring an additional 23. His rampage lasted from 7:15am to 5:30pm. The reason he was able to roam the campus indiscriminately murdering innocent people for over 10 hours is that all of his victims were defenseless. Ken Stanton, a columnist for Virginia Tech’s Collegiate Times, Virginia Tech student, and administrator of the Students for Conceal Carry on Campus organization, told me that he estimates there are between 300-400 concealed carry permit holders who attend Virginia Tech. All it would have taken was one armed citizen and Cho’s wanton disregard for human life would have ended much sooner than ten hours, with a significantly lower death toll. Teachers at Columbine and students at Virginia Tech should not have been denied the ability to shoot these murderers to prevent them from spilling more blood. Instead, they had to wait until the violent murderers shot themselves for the carnage to end.
Universities continue to be one of the gravest areas of concern, since unlike workplaces and government buildings; they are independently operated and highly public places. As opposed to high schools, college students over 21 are of age to carry, and many already hold permits to do so. However, due to senseless regulations enacted by universities, they are prohibited from having the means to defend themselves at any given time.


Guns on Campuses


The opponents to campus carry have an endless array of arguments against students carrying their legally licensed weapons at school. Let’s take a look at some of their favorite contentions:



Guns on campus would lead to an escalation of crime:

Carrying concealed weapons on campus has been permitted since fall 2006 at 20 campuses of nine public colleges in Utah, Colorado State University since 2003, and at the Blue Ridge Community College since 1996. With concealed carry allowed on these campuses for a combined total of 100 semesters, none of these schools has experienced a single incident of gun violence or accidents. Similarly, none of the state which permit carrying has seen an increase in gun violence since legalizing concealed carry, even though carriers wear their guns in places such as food stores, movie theaters, office buildings, shopping malls, churches, restaurants and banks. Furthermore, studies done at by University of Maryland professor John Lott and University of Georgia professor David Mustard, as well as those done by various state agencies, show that concealed license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes.


A student with a gun could “snap” and go on a killing spree:

According to a report by the Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center on the prevention of targeted violence in schools, the notion of a previously sane, well-adjusted person “snapping” into a violent frenzy is not supported by case evidence. The study concluded that a person’s descent towards violent acts is typically accompanied with numerous warning signs.


Conclusion


Most citizens who choose to carry a handgun are the opposite of wild, dangerous people. They are shown statistically to be more level headed than non-carrying people, and have proven this is practical terms by keeping their handguns on them every day, not using them unless they feel their lives are in immediate jeopardy. People who carry have a positive impact on their communities, not because they go looking for criminals trying to be police, but because they go about their day prepared to respond to those who intend to do them harm. They do this despite the fact that the population at large views them as crazy or paranoid. It would have been a blessing to have had an armed civilian at Virginia Tech or Fort Hood, or in any of the thousands of store robberies where clerks are killed each year. The presence of a private citizen with a handgun may not help stop violence 100% of the time, but there has never been a case where it hurt. Those of you who do not carry a gun should be thankful that there are people willing to shoulder that responsibility. If there is ever a day where you find yourself face to face with a criminal, sever seconds away from death, a good guy with a gun nearby can’t help but increase your chance to survive. ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense Archer http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62407-almost_finished_product_speech_advocating_handgun_carry.html Had to clear the house this morning at 3AM http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62358-had_to_clear_the_house_this_morning_at_3am.html Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:33:01 GMT Well I had to clear that house this morning around 3AM. My wife and I were both awoken by a loud thud, and then some voices whispering. Well, all the bedrooms are on the second floor, so I grabbed my S/W 4046, and started out the bedroom door into the hall. I went downstairs and cleared the entire house, checking all doors and windows, no problems, nothing at all. I then proceeded back upstairs and hear noise coming from my oldest son's room. I slowly opened the door, and there he was with our GIGANTISAURS dog Zeus. I asked if he had made a bunch of noise, he told me that Zeus rolled out of his bed and hit the floor. Heart rate return to normal, and go back to bed, of course I couldnt fall back to sleep. One thing that I really hated about the situation, it clearing the house in nothing but a pair of boxer shorts. I ran thru my mind what to do if I had encountered a BG inside the house. Should I shoot first and ask questions later, should I hold someone at gunpoint until police arrive. I have to say if they are INSIDE my home well I am going to shoot first, but in the garage, or back yard, I would say hold at gunpoint until police arrive. Has anyone been in the situation where they have held a BG at gunpoint until police arrived? Or even had to shoot a intruder? About 2 years ago, I started to pay an attorney monthly so that I would have one on retainer until I need him. I hope to never have to need him, but its like an insurance policy I hope to never have to use it, but if I ever do, I will be glad to have it.

INGunGuy ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense INGunGuy http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62358-had_to_clear_the_house_this_morning_at_3am.html Ever had an intruder in your house/property? http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62273-ever_had_an_intruder_in_your_house_property.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:42:34 GMT Poll time INGO.

Ever had an intruder in your house/property?

Let's hear your stories.
 ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense rambone http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62273-ever_had_an_intruder_in_your_house_property.html change of address http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62250-change_of_address.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:17:42 GMT Ok who do i notify my old county that i have my license to carry with or the new one i live in now. I moved from LaPorte county to Allen county. Who do i call and can someone maybe provide a phone number. My license to carry is with LaPorte county. Ok who do i notify my old county that i have my license to carry with or the new one i live in now. I moved from LaPorte county to Allen county. Who do i call and can someone maybe provide a phone number. My license to carry is with LaPorte county. ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense silentvoice71 http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62250-change_of_address.html FINALLY!!! http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62236-finally.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:44:48 GMT I finally got my lifetime permit. I been like a little kid checkin the mail everyday. Now aslong as I dont drop it while carrying I will be happy. lol I plan on CC so I shouldnt have to worry about that I hope. I finally got my lifetime permit. I been like a little kid checkin the mail everyday. Now aslong as I dont drop it while carrying I will be happy. lol I plan on CC so I shouldnt have to worry about that I hope. ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense smiley69_300 http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62236-finally.html <![CDATA[Report on Killings & Concealed Gun Permits is Flawed]]> http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62198-report_on_killings_and_concealed_gun_permits_is_flawed.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 14:26:36 GMT
Quote:
By Jacob Sullum

In an effort to rebut the idea that allowing law-abiding Americans to carry handguns in public helps prevent crime, the Violence Policy Center has begun compiling a list of homicides committed by people with carry permits. "Concealed handgun permit holders killed eight law enforcement officers and 77 private citizens (including 10 shooters who killed themselves after an attack) during the period May 2007 through October 2009," it says, based on news reports. "Contrary to the false promises of the gun lobby," says VPC Executive Director Josh Sugarmann, "the simple and deadly fact is that state concealed handgun systems are arming cop-killers, mass shooters, and other murderers."

Sugarmann says VPC may be missing some killers who had carry permits because it is relying on press accounts that do not necessarily note that detail. But even if the total number of homicides by permit holders is twice the number tallied by VPC, the rate is remarkably low. Thirty-nine states have "shall issue" permit policies, meaning they allow anyone who meets a set of objective criteria (such as a clean record and completion of firearms training) to carry a gun.

Not all of them report the number of permits they issue, but Florida alone has more than 1.5 million permit holders, so there are several million nationwide.
Opposing Views: OPINION:Report on Killings & Concealed Gun Permits is Flawed ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense Hotdoger http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62198-report_on_killings_and_concealed_gun_permits_is_flawed.html Carrying at a hard to carry job http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62161-carrying_at_a_hard_to_carry_job.html Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:33:29 GMT I work in the restaurant industry. With the exception of my time at work, I either have a gun on my side or within 10 feet from me 24/7. I feel almost naked at work. Whether it be my G26 or my .38 special in my glove box.... I've seen a lot of deep carry options, but absolutely nothing I believe would be comfortable at all. My attire at work is company polo + jeans at all times. It's hard to conceal in jeans with a tucked in shirt and I need some suggestions. Maybe a keltec p3at in a pocket holster, maybe a walther pps in an ankle glove and wide legged jeans, .22 derringer in my ***....

I run into the issue of moving about... I often have to squat down while weighing inventory, bend over while taking cash from the safe, squabble sideways while I squeeze through occupied tables to check on guests.... I've never carried at work before... yet. I'd like to find some form on CC, 380+, that I can easily and comfortably (without bothering me or guests noticing) conceal. My immediate supervisor knows I carry everywhere else except the store, but my x2 up doesn not know, nor will he. He is there 2x a week though. Anyone else in my boat with some success?

btw: anyone working near 465 x zionsville road pm me and I'll set you and some coworkers up with some free lunch. ;-) ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense goodcat http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62161-carrying_at_a_hard_to_carry_job.html LTCH Names for sale By Indiana State Police http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62118-ltch_names_for_sale_by_indiana_state_police.html Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:47:44 GMT Forwarded message
Folks this is just one reason you all get involved with the second ammendment patriots.

It's been brought to my attention by one of our 2nd Amendment Patriots in the middle part of the state that anyone or any group who wishes to acquire the list of Indiana licensed gun owners merely has to contact the Indiana State Police and for $32.00 can get the names of each and every one.

I talked to the ISP yesterday about this and told him it's disgusting that groups like news media can purchase them and publish them in their papers. I don't think they would like having their names published and let's say, how much jewelry or precious heirlooms they have in their house.

The ISP office I talked with told me I need to call my legislator. Apparently that database is considered public record. I talked with Rep. Jackie Walorski yesterday about this and she also called the ISP to make sure it was not just a policy decision instead of law.

It is law and so therefore she intends to introduce an amendment into one of the pro gun bills the Democrats intend to introduce this coming session in order to get their rating from the NRA. Her amendment would seek to prohibit the release of that private information. Jackie told me the ISP is not too happy about having to give out that information either.

Please make a note that we will have several candidates at our next 2nd Amendment Patriot meeting which is Saturday November 28th. A gentleman by the name of Ted Metzger has written to tell me he is a Republican candidate for Indiana Senate Dist. 47. That seat is currently held by Sen. Richard Young (D).

Kristi Risk will also be with us. She is the a candidate for Congress District 8 now held by Congressman Ellsworth.

Also, we will have Richard Behney as a guest. Richard is a candidate for U.S. Senate running to unseat Sen. Evan Bayh.

These fine people are anxious to meet all of you so please mark you calendars and make every effort to be at this next Patriot meeting. It will be the last one for this year and these candidates are traveling a long way to visit with you and I hope you will take advantage of the efforts that go into arranging for you all to meet these candidates face to face.

Our website might be undergoing some upgrading in the near future and it may be down for awhile. I just wanted to let you know in advance.

We look forward to seeing a record crowd at this November meeting. Please try to atttend.

Thanks,

Jim and Margie
2nd Amendment Patriots
STAY UNITED
www.2ndamendmentpatriots.org
_______________________________________________

:ar15: A duplicate post on 2 different topics But I believe it's Important Delete one if necessary :ingo: ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense Farmritch http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62118-ltch_names_for_sale_by_indiana_state_police.html Where is Carry Not Allowed? http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62110-where_is_carry_not_allowed.html Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:50:46 GMT Obviously public schools are not allowed (K-12), State and Federal Buildings, but where else in Indiana is it specifically not legal to be in possession of a firearm? Does anyone have a comprehensive list? Obviously public schools are not allowed (K-12), State and Federal Buildings, but where else in Indiana is it specifically not legal to be in possession of a firearm? Does anyone have a comprehensive list? ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense skseifert http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62110-where_is_carry_not_allowed.html Help needed for speech http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62060-help_needed_for_speech.html Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:56:49 GMT Hello folks,

brand new member here. I'm a student who is giving a persuasive speech for one of my classes. I've decided that my topic will be:

Concealed carry is beneficial to the overall safety of both the individual and the public, and should be permitted everywhere.


The topic will delve into how precisely CC or Licensed handgun owners affect crime rates, and how CC on college campuses is particularly beneficial. It will also touch on the idiocy of "gun-free zones" as nothing more than potential killing fields where those who mean to do harm know they are unlikely to encounter opposition (i.e., Viginia Tech or Ft. Hood).


I have some ideas in mind as to how I am going to structure this. However, I do not want to halfa** it. I don't want it to be one of those speeches that provides alot of points with no statistical data to back them up. I will be primarily using the FBI's Uniform Crime Report, as well as some other sources. I am, however, TERRIBLE at analyzing and interpreting statisitcs.

So what I am asking for is someone who can help me incorporate the stats accurately and efficiently into my speech. Also, if you have any points you feel I should include, feel free to post them here. Keep in mind I would like to keep politics out of the speech as much as possible, the speech is designed to shed light on the benifits on carrying, not bash the liberals.


Also let me say thank you in advance for your future input. ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense Archer http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/62060-help_needed_for_speech.html Cory Maye Granted New Trial!!! http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/61986-cory_maye_granted_new_trial.html Wed, 18 Nov 2009 01:48:19 GMT The debacle of Mississippi may be coming to an end. The Mississippi Court of Appeals has granted Cory Maye a new trial.

Cory Maye is an African-American who was tried for Murder in Jefferson Davis County (trial was moved to Marion County, MS), Mississippi for shooting a police officer who was serving a questionable search warrant on his duplex in Prentiss, Mississippi. Maye claimed self-defense. The trial was a disaster on many different levels.

May this nightmare of American justice come to an end.

New Trial for Cory Maye - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense Kirk Freeman http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/61986-cory_maye_granted_new_trial.html Do you carry on your person from when you wake till bed. http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/61874-do_you_carry_on_your_person_from_when_you_wake_till_bed.html Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:00:18 GMT So, I was in a heated discussion with someone that I do care about and do value her opinion. She finds it "over the top" that I carry my carry piece on me even when I am just doing things around the house. I say its pretty common and believe that someone could break into your house at any time. Sure its a small house but how do you know you can always make it to a defensive piece. I have very few handguns. They are all in one room as well. So I wear my carry gun from the time I get up till bed. Do you? Or is this behavior extreme? I will put it on even on my off days where I don't normally go out of the house. ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense Comp http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/61874-do_you_carry_on_your_person_from_when_you_wake_till_bed.html Portage Police pay $90,000 settlement for excessive use of force on choking man http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/61817-portage_police_pay_90_000_settlement_for_excessive_use_of_force_on_choking_man.html Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:44:15 GMT Wowzers.


Quote:
Contentious Tasers Earn Praise
NWI police departments embrace weapon in spite of instances of lawsuits



Portage police have no plans to eliminate Tasers from their nonlethal arsenal, despite a $90,000 settlement the city had to pay as a result of an excessive force lawsuit.

And, in the adjacent city of Hobart, police are planning to add Tasers to their department for the first time within the next 30 to 60 days, Hobart Police Chief Rod Gonzalez said.

"They are absolutely going to help our officers and protect our citizens," Gonzalez said. "It's a method to subdue a violent offender."

The advantages -- which include the elimination of bodily harm for police and suspects -- outweigh any of the negatives such as occasional lawsuits that can target police for a variety of scenarios, Merrillville Police Chief Joseph Petruch said.

"There will continue to be lawsuits," Petruch said.

Merrillville police, which eliminated Tasers from their department for about three to four years because of charging problems, re-introduced the weapons about a year ago.

"They've upgraded them so much we went back to them. ... Any given day there will be a Taser on the street," Petruch said. "We can't afford to have every officer have them, but we do have at least one officer per turn."

Although most area police departments use Tasers and sing their praises, there is a downside to the weapon if not used properly, Merrillville attorney Stephen Bower said.

"The reason I don't like use of them is because it doesn't take into consideration other things that might be occurring," Bower said, adding, "There have been deaths from the reaction. The Tasers are not intended to kill, but that's happened."

Bower was the attorney for Portage resident James Wring who filed the lawsuit against Portage police and city officials following a November 2004 incident.

Wring was 17 years old when police officers used Taser guns on him 16 times, sprayed a chemical in his eyes, threw him to the ground and hog-tied him before taking him into custody, the lawsuit stated.

Bower said Wring, who was at his girlfriend's Portage home, apparently had gotten something lodged in his throat after he, his girlfriend and her mother had gone to a nearby fast-food restaurant.

The girlfriend's mom had called 911 when Wring came out of a bathroom staggering and mumbling, and apparently police arrived and reacted before the paramedics, Bower said.

Although police and the paramedics reported they thought Wring was intoxicated, tests showed that wasn't the case.

"Speculation was that when he choked, he shut off his air pipe, which made oxygen deficient to the brain, and it made him impaired," Bower said.
The lawsuit hasn't really changed the Portage Police Department's Taser use, police Sgt. Keith Hughes said.

In fact, his department just recently placed an order for 21 more Tasers, a purchase that will be paid for through federal grant money.

Hughes said the cost to buy video cameras is prohibitive for his department right now.

But he believes plans by Hobart police to buy the accompanying units with Tasers is a wise one.

"In a case of legal action, people like to fabricate how many times the weapons were shot. That's all kept on record with the video units," Hughes said.

Portage police Sgt. John Ryan, who trains officers on an annual basis, agrees that Tasers aren't the end-all, and there are cases in which they're not appropriate.

He said Portage police only used Tasers 10 times last year, and the weapon is a deterrent to some crime for "a lot of people just knowing they're out there and they don't want to experience them.

The Tasers emit an electrical charge into the body that causes muscle confusion, which makes the person not want to fight.

"We're keeping them in our tool box," Ryan said.
]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense rambone http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/61817-portage_police_pay_90_000_settlement_for_excessive_use_of_force_on_choking_man.html Owensboro clerk killed in gas station robbery http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/61791-owensboro_clerk_killed_in_gas_station_robbery.html Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:13:25 GMT "The clerk, Suba Singh, 46, of Henderson, told police he had been robbed and shot in the stomach with a semi-automatic gun."

?Workers at the Shell station say the robber wasn't dressed like your typical convenience store robber.??

Clerk killed in gas station robbery - 14 News, The Tri-State's News and Weather Leader- ]]> Carry Issues and Self Defense duke http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/61791-owensboro_clerk_killed_in_gas_station_robbery.html