Dry firing

[sloughfoot]

I have many pistols with modified triggers that make the trigger pull softer and easier. Including some striker fired pistols and double action revolvers.

I have recently acquired a S&W Model 25 in 45 Colt with a stock trigger. My first range outing with it shocked me how out of shape my trigger finger is. At 7 and 10 yards, I was able to get effective self defense groups, but not very tight groups. I just never knew when the gun was going to go off. It was not being controlled by me.

I spent this evening dry firing this revolver maybe 500 times to rebuild the strength in my trigger fingers and to ensure that my trigger fingers were not related to the grip of either hand.

I have re-affirmed my belief that dry firing a heavy pull, double action revolver is the best way to train for trigger control of all types of pistols and triggers.

Plus the mechanical parts of the Model 25 have been smoothed out to some degree.

 

[throttletony]

I'd agree with all of that

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Old guy here. Dry firing is bad. If you don't do it, then you will never find out that your particular gun can be damaged by dry fire.

Now that you have ingrained and reinforced muscle-memory of snapping that trigger and not expecting a discharge, pay extra attention to trigger finger discipline in order to not shoot unintended holes by accident.

Yes, I know that my opinion is unpopular and antiquated, but then I have never broke a pin, or shot a hole in my kitchen either...... At least not accidentally.

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

I think the issue some folks have with dry firing basing current opinions on old, out of date wisdom.

Perhaps decades ago the metallurgical quality was such that dry firing was bad, and thus wisely avoided.

However, our knowledge of metals and alloys has progressed to the point that the concern about dry firing is now obsolete and out of place.

Consider that at one time it was prudent to not talk on the telephone as you could indeed be electrocuted. This was due to the use of metal wires in the telephone lines. Today we use fiber optic that has NO chance of conducting an electrical current from a lightning hit. We wind up with some folks who were always told "not to talk on the phone" when there was a storm. Valid point? Yes, at one time. Today, not at all - unless your lines have not been updated which is highly unlikely.

The fear of dry firing comes from a time when perhaps a firing pin was more prone to breakage. That fear is no longer based upon current fact and is thus out of place.

Caveat: this does NOT apply to rimfire rounds which can suffer damage due to the impact on the metal.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Regards,

Doug

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Yes, I am old and out of date, as are most of my guns. There are LOTS and LOTS of old guns out there, I'd guess there to be far more old ones than new ones in general circulation. Here at my house there have been two breakages, a certain mouse-gun with a grip safety and an early model of plastic-frame fame.

The mouse-gun, grip safety spring broken twice....... By practice with gripping a difficult grip. I literally gripped the grip safety, stroking the spring until it broke! Twice! The plastic one belongs to my son. I have taught him to never dry fire his gun, yet still he has stroked the trigger so many times that he has broken the trigger spring! No firing pin problems, he never/rarely let the hammer fall. He wore out the return spring and it broke by stroking the trigger thousands of times.

Both of these guns are '90s stock. Yes, that's old. They are the newest ones in the house. My point is that parts break if you use them. Cycling the firing mechanism 500 times in one night is heavy use in my book. And all that without even busting a cap? Heavy use and no fun to be had doing it. But I digress.......

My main concern is the mental and physical conditioning that dry-fire pounds into your brain. Practice produces response. Training will kick in unconsciously when your mind is shocked and stunned. That's why we do it. Now you have trained yourself to aim, breathing controlled, squeeze the trigger, and CLINK...... Nothing. Trained at this all night. Gained trigger control, sight picture, grip, all great things but you have also inadvertently trained yourself to expect no repercussions to pulling that trigger. You have also trained your unconscious self that there will be no report, that there is no bullet flying.

Now flash ahead...... you are loading up your pockets to face the day. As you pickup that gun maybe you take a bead on something, you know just looking. Is your finger on the trigger? Have you instinctively started to squeeze one off, LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN TRAINING TO ALL NIGHT? No, your head is clear, you know the difference. OK. How about that evening, leaving work? You are tired, nerves are jangled, probably irritable. When the jitterbug little thug snatches you out of your car intending to take it, how do you respond? Is your head clear now? If and when you decide to pull that firearm will you remember your trigger discipline? Ot will you snap one off from muscle-memory JUST LIKE YOU TRAINED TO DO ALL NIGHT.

Now I know that the odds of you EVER needing to pull your pistol are statistically insignificant. Yet you still trained on trigger-pull? You practiced your grip and staying on target? There must be SOME thought in your head that you could maybe use these skills in the real world. Consider what your are training yourself to do unconsciously.

We discuss it here all the time. Stories are presented "I don't know how the gun went off" "I didn't intend to shoot him" "AD here, ND there......" I will give it to kirk, a gun can go off. 99% of the time though there is a finger on the trigger, and a lot of those the shooter had no idea that he had just touched one off. It's in the news occasionally. I am stupid enough by myself without training to engage in disaster. For all you younger more informed guys with the latest race-guns, carry on. Just stay the hell out of the news!

And yes this is just my opinion too..... Worth what you paid for it.

 

[Arthur Dent]

If you're worried about damage from dry firing throw a snap cap in. That's what they are made for. A few bucks for a little peace of mind? Sure!

 

[sloughfoot]

Roger that on the snap caps. I have worn some of them out too.

But I have to say I have never heard anyone say to not dry fire firearms that clearly can be dryfired. You have listed some of the things that you think, based on your experience I suppose? But I suspect your misgivings are based on your speculation.

I have never experienced any of the things you describe. Morning, night, tired, alert. None of that matters. And I have been carrying sidearms for the last 40+. years. You and I obviously have totally different experiences. Let me tell you some of mine.

You see, I have indeed held bad guys at gunpoint. More than once. At all hours of the day and night. I have held them while waiting for backup or while they were being handcuffed or otherwise secured. I have entered buildings with pistol or shotgun out and ready for use. I have entered stores on "armed robbery in progress" calls. All the thousands of manipulations (dry fires) were never confused when things became very real. The firearm became an extension of me and the operation of it became almost an unconscious thought. Because my serious guns were either being dry fired or being used in competitions.

The S&W revolver is my favorite revolver mainly because there is a "spot" in the trigger pull where the hammer is all the way back, the cylinder is locked into a loaded cylinder, and just squeezing the trigger another ounce or millimeter or thousands of an inch will allow the hammer to fall. I have held people at gunpoint with the issued Model 15 RIGHT THERE. I never had to release the hammer, but I always knew precisely where the bullet would enter the body of the person that had instigated this response from me. Releasing the trigger pressure makes the revolver immediately safe.

Ask Jerry Mikkulek. He knows this spot intimately also. It is how he makes thousand yard shots in double action.

There is only one way to get this intimate knowledge of your firearm. Practice with it every chance you get. Nobody has an unlimited supply of ammo or time to be on the range constantly. Dry firing smoothes out the action, develops the grip, and trains the trigger finger to operate without regard to the grip and in such a way as to not disturb the sight picture.

What prompted me to post was that I took my new revolver to the range and could not find this spot. I just squeezed right through it because I have been lazy and not practicing. BTW, my favorite target is a light switch on the other side of the room.

I learned long ago that you can learn whether a person is a shooter by shaking his hand. A shooter's trigger finger is not part of his grip. It is straight along your wrist. Squeezing the grip does not cause the trigger finger to move. In my experience, there is only one way to develop this independence of finger and grip.

 

[ModernGunner]

The Snap Caps (whatever brand) simply eliminate the 'dry fire good / not good' debate. They're relatively inexpensive and should be in the 'accessory bin' of anyone that owns a firearm, particularly handguns. For me, I even have a bunch of 'em for the rifles and shotguns, to practice speed loading, etc. In addition to allowing dry-fire practice, they're useful for practicing 'port speed loading' on the pump shotguns, revolvers with speed loaders, and add some realistic weight for practicing mag changes at speed.

The 'improper response training' is a ludicrous issue, IMO. For 2 reasons:

1) This 'assumes' the gun trainee / student to be nothing more than a 'mindless Pavlovian dog' that simple responds to the 'bell' by unthinkingly pulling the trigger. If ANYONE is that concerned about doing that and having an AD / ND / shooting a hole in the kitchen, they MOST likely should NOT own a handgun to begin with, let alone carry one.

2) This also 'assumes' that this 'Pavlovian' response would be 'internalized' ONLY by dry firing, and not by firing live ammo. If that 'Pavlovian response' (grab gun / pull trigger immediately) is going to be instilled by dry-firing '500 times in one night', then it's JUST as likely to be instilled by live-firing '500 times in one night'. And I'm sure that there is more than one handgunner, even INGO member, that has fired 500 rounds in one 'outing'.

While we don't often bring it up, the PREFACE to the '4 safety rules' AND the same preface to ANY real-life combat scenario is "THINK!"

Anyone who truly believes they'll be unable to "THINK!" in a real-life, stressed situation would do themselves a great favor by not carrying a firearm. If one is unable to think, they're in 'over their head' before the situation ever even presents itself.

Based on tens and tens of thousands of live-fire rounds expended over the decades, and some real-life situations, the 'concern' is, really, a non-issue as long as one keeps their wits about them and chooses to "THINK!".

Finally, tools break. Even top notch, high-buck firearms can have parts that break. IF it's going to break, better to have it break at home, or even at the range, than if your life (god forbid) depends on it. If it's wearing out from practice, don't be cheap, replace it! This is a tool you MIGHT be (however unlikely) be betting your life on. It should be inspected and maintained fastidiously, even if that means replacing the parts every year (highly unlikely). Unless, of course, one doesn't feel their life is worth the cost of a trigger spring, etc.

JMO. YMMV.

 

[BeDome]

Just bought my first set of snap caps for my .45. to help my son learn to squeeze a trigger while controlling his sight picture holding a substantial handgun (and for me to refresh my own abilities).

I think most of us know about which types of firing mechanisms dry firing can hurt. However it never hurts to mention for the "new to the table" crowd, that it is almost NEVER OK to dry fire a rimfire weapon without some kind of cushioning for the firing pin, such as a fired casing in place if you can not locate a snap cap.

 

[1911ly]

My 640-3 is a DA only. I practice trigger pull and keeping the front sight steady often. It has helped me tremendiously. I could tell the difference on every range trip. I only have one gun that you can't dry fire. It's an old Marlin 22 bolt action.

And the OP is right. It does improve the trigger pull by breaking in the surfaces.

 

[looney2ns]

Dry fire is good. Anyone who doesn't practice dry firing is missing out on the best way to practice. Springs are cheap to replace.
I know a top competitive shooter that claims he dry fires his revolver a minimum of 10,000 times per year.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

The S&W revolver is my favorite revolver mainly because there is a "spot" in the trigger pull where the hammer is all the way back, the cylinder is locked into a loaded cylinder, and just squeezing the trigger another ounce or millimeter or thousands of an inch will allow the hammer to fall. I have held people at gunpoint with the issued Model 15 RIGHT THERE. I never had to release the hammer, but I always knew precisely where the bullet would enter the body of the person that had instigated this response from me. Releasing the trigger pressure makes the revolver immediately safe.

Ask Jerry Mikkulek. He knows this spot intimately also. It is how he makes thousand yard shots in double action.

I know EXACTLY what you mean about that sweet spot, the spot where the glass breaks. You all will ridicule, but my gun with the best trigger pull is a cheap Harrington & Richardson 929. It is exactly as you say, it goes off exactly when you want it to go off. You do realize that technically that is a HORRIBLE trigger pull? At least for target shooting anyways. In all of my extensive training I have always been trained that the hammer should fall without your immediate knowledge. your job is to squeeze while keeping the sight picture perfect. The rest is for the weapon to do. If this isn't right, there are MILLIONS of military not doing it right.

As far as holding a person at gunpoint like you say, that just scares the **** right out of me. I am sure that you are a highly trained and skilled athlete. Nobody knows better than you, and that is essentially what you are saying about yourself. you compare yourself with Jerry Miculek. That means that you are the second person in the world with such skills..... very impressive. You are holding other peoples lives to bear that you have a realistic judgment of your own skills. Hmmmmm. I suppose that they are just perps. It's not like you are risking much.

Now while we are asking Jerry Miculek questions, let's ask him if he will have a man hold the target in his hands as he does his world record shooting? Will he let a live person be at the receiving end while he is using that sweet trigger spot? I see that you don't mind doing this........ I will wait for Jerry's answer before I call it a consensus.

We each have a right to our opinions, and we both SHOULD know our limitations. You state that you have been dealing with firearms for 40+ years. Me too. As far as I am concerned, after 40+ years, I am loosing it. My physical abilities are definitely in decline. If yours are not then you are quite the specimen. Congratulations. It looks like lives are counting on it.

 

[Firingpinhead]

I been shootin 40+ years...I've always heard don't dry fire. When I was a kid I did with a couple single shot shotguns,broke em both. I also know how the firing pin on a .22 will dent the chamber face. I got an old Stevens Dbl barrel and it has internal hammers and cocks when it's broke open.....I usually put a couple fired shells in it and drop the hammers.

 

[Jerry45Acp]

My main concern is the mental and physical conditioning that dry-fire pounds into your brain. Practice produces response. Training will kick in unconsciously when your mind is shocked and stunned. That's why we do it. Now you have trained yourself to aim, breathing controlled, squeeze the trigger, and CLINK...... Nothing. Trained at this all night. Gained trigger control, sight picture, grip, all great things but you have also inadvertently trained yourself to expect no repercussions to pulling that trigger. You have also trained your unconscious self that there will be no report, that there is no bullet flying.

This is pretty much not true at all.

 

[Jerry45Acp]

the hammer should fall without your immediate knowledge. your job is to squeeze while keeping the sight picture perfect. The rest is for the weapon to do. If this isn't right, there are MILLIONS of military not doing it right.

This is also not correct. If I am about to shoot something....anything....I darn sure want to know when the hammer is going to fall! The "You should be surprised when the gun goes off" mentality is just crazy! It simply means you are not familiar with your firearm.

As far as "Millions of military not doing it right", I would ask; in what military, and in what country are you referring?

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

As far as "Millions of military not doing it right", I would ask; in what military, and in what country are you referring?

Army. Mid to late '70s. Received instruction under an officer who was also instructing the US Olympic rifle team. Had my expert marksman badge at 16, was out of the mood by 18. Shooting was only a hobby. Olympics is for millionaire's kids and killing with it didn't seem like that much fun. I became interested in marrying a girl rather than Uncle Sam and never looked back.

Old, crippled but still a better than average shot 40 years later. And apparently more safety conscious than average too.

 

[jcwit]

Heck, I shocked every time the gun actually goes off.

 

[KoopaKGB]

In USMC boot camp we dry fired for hours at a time. Most times I have was surprised when the very gritty and creepy trigger on my M16A2 broke. Still shot sharpshooter or expert every qual. Inspecting and verifying it was unloaded each and every time the rifle was handed to me ensured the weapon was still in condition 4. Not once in my enlistment was I ever in condition 1 when I thought I was in condition 4 or vice versa. 5+ years of machinegunnery experience. Now if you start adding in magazine drills or other high speed manuvers you run a greater risk of ND in my opinion. But dry firing is still conducted in a safe manner, weapon always pointed in a "safe" direction if it were to discharge. 4 safety rules always being followed.

 

[phylodog]

Jerry Miculek had the S&W custom shop turn a revolver into a gear shifter for his vehicle so he could dry fire when he drives.

I've seen far to many recruits benefit from dry fire practice to remotely consider an argument against it. I've benefitted from it myself.

 

[sloughfoot]

The USMC calls it "snapping in". They have always done it. Hundreds of times before heading to the live fire range. It was just as useful with the 1903 Springfield as it is with the M16.