When the four rules are not enough or "squib happens"..........

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  • indiucky

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    I have a routine where I fire roughly 250 rounds of .22 per week (all double action) out of my farm/truck/beater Smith and Wesson Model 18-2...Some of you may remember this pound puppy I rescued last year when I had my illness...(Snorko got to hold it once and he held it with such grace and reverence. He and I both have a thing for "pound puppies" with S&W on the frame)The revolver is the same age as me (51) and like myself is scarred, ugly, and yet refined in a sort of redneck fashion...I love her...By far my favorite weapon...I got it right before I got my reversal surgery and when I got it marks the furthest I went from the house while wearing my little belly bag.....70 miles round trip all the way up to Austin.. I had busted open a box of Federal auto match when I decided to shoot up the .22 ammo that had been on my ammo belt for at least two years...Before that this .22 ammo was a mix of ammo I had kept in a tray where all my loose .22 ammo goes...Some of this ammo probably goes back to my teens!!!!!

    I decided to go ahead and shoot it up and replace the ammo in the belt with something fresher...As I began shooting (rapidly) I noticed I began to get a couple of failure to fires...My first thought was "This K 22 Combat Masterpiece has had thousands of rounds shot through it this past year alone, it spent the first 45 years of it's life under the seat of a farmers truck...Maybe something is wrong with the gun????" Then I realized how dumb that sounded..."Yeah right...A Smith revolver only 50 years old and beat all to hell not working.....LOL..." I checked the cartridge heads and they were fine...No weak strikes.....I decided to keep shooting but in the back of my mind I thought WWHCKFD? (What would Honorable Colonel Kirk freeman do?) And then out loud I said "Well he sure as Hell wouldn't be doing double taps...Slow it down until you burn through this ammo..." No sooner than I thought that and began slowly shooting I heard a, "PPFFFTTTTT..." And no "ding."

    "What the heck????"

    I popped open the revolver...Emptied her and checked the bore...About 2 inches in a Remington .22 bullet ca 1980's was lodged in the weapon...I set the revolver down on the bench and went inside for my cleaning rod and popped her out...I got through the rest of the old ammo without incident...And followed it up with 100 rounds of new Federal ammo.....Many of us have old ammo laying around...I have a zip lock bag of .38 specials/.357 magnums that have been through the wash in a Bianchi speed strip...Every now and again I take this ammo up to the farm to shoot it up as I have no more confidence in it after a run though the washer...I have never had a failure to fire from it but I still don't trust it...

    So what is the lesson here??? I don't know...Just always be careful, especially with old ammo....Always obey the four rules and use common sense...When shooting up old ammo be extra careful...No double taps or rapid fire...You don't run full tilt when you are taking the garbage out right? Shooting up this ammo was nothing more than getting rid of some old garbage..No need to go full speed.....If I wouldn't have taken a minute to reflect after having some dud rounds, my favorite revolver would have a bulged barrel and I may have (I don't think I could have been hurt) lost confidence in a revolver that means the world to me....







    When H.C. Kirk Freeman lectures on gun safety it's not because he is an old maid or is trying to be a nag....He understands that firearms are basically hand held devices with controlled explosions taking place within....Four simple rules seem like a small price to pay for such joy, power, and beauty...

    IMHO...
     
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    JettaKnight

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    I decided to go ahead and shoot it up and replace the ammo in the belt with something fresher...As I began shooting (rapidly) I noticed I began to get a couple of failure to fires...My first thought was "This K 22 Combat Masterpiece has had thousands of rounds shot through it this past year alone, it spent the first 45 years of it's life under the seat of a farmers truck...Maybe something is wrong with the gun????" Then I realized how dumb that sounded..."Yeah right...A Smith revolver only 50 years old and beat all to hell not working.....LOL..." I checked the cartridge heads and they were fine...No weak strikes.....I decided to keep shooting but in the back of my mind I thought WWHCKFD? (What would Honorable Colonel Kirk freeman do?) And then out loud I said "Well he sure as Hell wouldn't be doing double taps...Slow it down until you burn through this ammo..." No sooner than I thought that and began slowly shooting I heard a, "PPFFFTTTTT..." And no "ding."
    :rolleyes:

    Maybe do the hookey-pookey spin moves, throw it on the ground and stomp on it, or ask the cameraman down range for his opinion?
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    Mar 9, 2008
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    When H.C. Kirk Freeman lectures on gun safety it's not because he is an old maid or is trying to be a nag....He understands that firearms are basically hand held devices with controlled explosions taking place within

    "A firearm is an explosion in a metal box in front of your face" is a line I stole from Heide Smith.

    Good reminder.
     

    CountryBoy19

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    Nov 10, 2008
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    Bedford, IN
    I set the revolver down on the bench and went inside for my cleaning rod and popped her out...I got through the rest of the old ammo without incident...
    You mean to tell me that you violated Kirk's "no exceptions, EVER, never point the gun at yourself" by using a rod and popping the bullet back out of the barrel?

    GASP, how dare you make a reasonable, common sense exception to a rule?
     

    JettaKnight

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    You mean to tell me that you violated Kirk's "no exceptions, EVER, never point the gun at yourself" by using a rod and popping the bullet back out of the barrel?

    GASP, how dare you make a reasonable, common sense exception to a rule?

    Why would have to point the gun at yourself to do this? :dunno:
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Oct 3, 2012
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    Why would have to point the gun at yourself to do this? :dunno:

    I suppose you could lock the gun in a vise and use blacksmith tongs to handle the cleaning rod as you tap it out with a hammer, but most of us just hold the cleaning rod and stick it in the end of the barrel, meaning our hand and/or fingers are in front of the muzzle.
     

    indiucky

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    You mean to tell me that you violated Kirk's "no exceptions, EVER, never point the gun at yourself" by using a rod and popping the bullet back out of the barrel?

    GASP, how dare you make a reasonable, common sense exception to a rule?

    It was uncomfortable...Not as uncomfortable as reenacting the Battle of Blue Licks but uncomfortable never the less...I would never disparage nor disagree with H.C. Kirk Freeman's preaching of the four rules....I had the cylinder open, used a short section of cleaning rod and technically (due to the width of the handle on the cleaning rod) my hand nor any part of me was directly in front of the barrel...

    Every time I load a muzzle loader (which is frequent) my hand is in the same position above the barrel as it was pushing out that little .22 slug on the Smith....And every time I load a muzzle loader the back of my neck tingles and I feel a sense of relief when the ball goes home..(That sounded kind of raunchy in a way but you get the gist:))

    Plus someone needs to tell me how awesome a job I did aging those grips.....They by golly look almost like ivory....:)
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    You mean to tell me that you violated Kirk's "no exceptions, EVER, never point the gun at yourself" by using a rod and popping the bullet back out of the barrel?

    GASP, how dare you make a reasonable, common sense exception to a rule?

    While I am glad I am on record as being AGAINST setting yourself on fire with the gun, do you understand the Four Rules as presented by Jeff Cooper? Have you been in one of his classes or watched the video?
     

    JettaKnight

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    I suppose you could lock the gun in a vise and use blacksmith tongs to handle the cleaning rod as you tap it out with a hammer, but most of us just hold the cleaning rod and stick it in the end of the barrel, meaning our hand and/or fingers are in front of the muzzle.

    That's right, it's a revolver in question, so...


    I was thinking about the rod going in from the breach.



    Regardless, it's kind of a stupid argument to start.
     

    BogWalker

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    While I am glad I am on record as being AGAINST setting yourself on fire with the gun, do you understand the Four Rules as presented by Jeff Cooper? Have you been in one of his classes or watched the video?
    I remember some guy challenging the four rules "always treat a firearm as if it were loaded". His troll logic was that if we always treat them as loaded, but you have to unload a gun to take it apart and clean it, then logically that means we can never clean our guns because they are always loaded. Ergo, the four rules are flawed and don't need to be followed.

    Troll logic is troll logic.
     

    CountryBoy19

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    I had the cylinder open,
    Kirk is on record on INGO stating that physically rendering the firearm inoperable (a-la opening the cylinder) still does not except the rule of don't point a gun at yourself.

    used a short section of cleaning rod and technically (due to the width of the handle on the cleaning rod) my hand nor any part of me was directly in front of the barrel...
    How big is the handle? I find it hard to believe (yet acknowledge the possibility) that at no point in time did any part of your body ever sweep in front of the muzzle. Even if it didn't, what would happen if the bullet (with no powder) miraculously went bang and blew the rod & handle out of the muzzle, deflecting off the head of the hammer, removing your hand? Didn't account for that possibility huh? According to kirk's unwavering stance on "no exceptions, EVER" we need to account for all possibilities, even if the gun has been rendered inoperable.

    While I am glad I am on record as being AGAINST setting yourself on fire with the gun, do you understand the Four Rules as presented by Jeff Cooper? Have you been in one of his classes or watched the video?

    Yes, I do understand the 4 rules as presented by Cooper, but we're talking about the 4 rule as you interpret and parrot them, as having "no exception, EVER". Seems to me you took my above post pretty personal...

    Cooper himself added exceptions to the rules, which you will acknowledge (yet deny that they are considered exceptions), yet there are other common sense exceptions that cannot possibly be acknowledged because they were not written into the rules as presented by Cooper.
     
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    Kirk Freeman

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    Yes, I do understand the 4 rules as presented by Cooper, but we're talking about the 4 rule as you interpret and parrot them, as having "no exception, EVER". Seems to me you took my above post pretty personal...

    No, that's not how Cooper presented them. If I were you, I would go back and review that lecture.

    Don't take anything here personal. Just talking about guns.
     

    indiucky

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    How big is the handle? I find it hard to believe (yet acknowledge the possibility) that at no point in time did any part of your body ever sweep in front of the muzzle. Even if it didn't, what would happen if the bullet (with no powder) miraculously went bang and blew the rod & handle out of the muzzle, deflecting off the head of the hammer, removing your hand? Didn't account for that possibility huh? According to kirk's unwavering stance on "no exceptions, EVER" we need to account for all possibilities, even if the gun has been rendered inoperable.

    There was no hammer involved...My body did not sweep in front of the weapon....I shoot flintlocks and don't really know what you are talking about??? They are loaded from the muzzle in a safe manner and have been for centuries....

    I don't know why you are using this thread (which was done just as a reminder to folks to be careful with old ammo) to trash H.C. Kirk Freeman...He speaks the truth with no worries of the child like mocking that will surely follow...And he is witty (albeit a little dry sometimes but witty never the less) with his responses....

    There are four rules...Trying to figure a way around them can be costly to oneself or to others....

    So how big is the handle???? Big enough to sometimes be hard to handle.....:)

    [video=youtube;mtLbE3IUY2U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtLbE3IUY2U[/video]
     
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