Should people feel shame for the deeds of their ancestors?

[jamil]

EDIT: the question is perhaps confusing. I'm asking if you think you should feel shame for the deeds done by someone you feel some kind of kinship with. Could be fellow citizens, people of the same race, your relatives, close, distant, past and present, or some other kind of connection.

I think not, but the more pushback I get for believing that, the more curious I am about why.

I'd like to know how many INGOers think that people who are connected to other people in some way, should feel ashamed of what those other people did. And I'd like to understand the rationale. Is it a feeling or tendency? Is it instinctual or is it a logically thought out position? Is it a religious belief? Philosophy?

I made the poll multi-choice in case you want to add the third option.

 

[jamil]

I've mostly said my peace in other threads, but I'd like to make one thing clear. I'm not saying that we shouldn't learn from history or judge it at all. We absolutely should. Everyone should be a student of history and learn the lessons exemplified.

 

[1775usmarine]

Whats done is done you can't do anything about it. If you can't learn to forgive and forget then you should seek professional help.

 

[eldirector]

Many generations ago, one of my ancestors stole a banana from someone. I feel no shame.

 

[KLB]

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

My answer is that it doesn't matter. People think that things like that are important, but they're really not, at least not in the way or context that people think.

Shame is an emotion, and emotions are continually changing and evolving, waxing and waning. And, for that reason, it's always a slippery slope to involve emotions in any discussion about what our ancestors did, and whether or not we need to do anything different because of it. People will always try to inject emotion into every venue in which they operate, when it can suit their purpose. They know that people are emotional creatures with a sometimes short attention span, and stirring up emotions can be a very effective tool (Google Politics) to garner quick interest and attention that builds momentum toward your purpose, and which will shortly go quietly away when you don't need it anymore.

The more constructive dialogs include more reason and logic and less emotion. Those dialogs always have more staying power, and those that get written today will still have meaning tomorrow after the dust settles, or after the emotions subside. The founding fathers used reason and logic because they were discussing and writing things that they hoped would still have meaning many years later. Politicians today use emotion, because they almost universally don't think that far down the road.

 

[indiucky]

Many generations ago, one of my ancestors stole a banana from someone. I feel no shame.

That was my ancestor you %^^$%^!!!!! I hope your people enjoyed the fruits of our labor!!!!!

 

[KG1]

I feel no shame for being born into something that I had no control over and I will not allow being held to task for the actions of my ancestors.

 

[jamil]

My answer is that it doesn't matter. People think that things like that are important, but they're really not, at least not in the way or context that people think.

Shame is an emotion, and emotions are continually changing and evolving, waxing and waning. And, for that reason, it's always a slippery slope to involve emotions in any discussion about what our ancestors did, and whether or not we need to do anything different because of it. People will always try to inject emotion into every venue in which they operate, when it can suit their purpose. They know that people are emotional creatures with a sometimes short attention span, and stirring up emotions can be a very effective tool (Google Politics) to garner quick interest and attention that builds momentum toward your purpose, and which will shortly go quietly away when you don't need it anymore.

The more constructive dialogs include more reason and logic and less emotion. Those dialogs always have more staying power, and those that get written today will still have meaning tomorrow after the dust settles, or after the emotions subside. The founding fathers used reason and logic because they were discussing and writing things that they hoped would still have meaning many years later. Politicians today use emotion, because they almost universally don't think that far down the road.

I can agree it doesn't (shouldn't) matter. If you feel ashamed of our past, okayfine, but just don't project your own sense of morality on me. I am not immoral when I won't be shamed because of something a relative did, or someone who shares similar DNA, or has the same name, or physique, or shoe size, or nationality.

I think of it logically. Should I feel ashamed for something I couldn't possibly have been responsible for? When white people act foolish, should I be ashamed of being white? When fat people act foolishly, should I feel ashamed of being fat? Wait. Don't answer that.

But you get the point. I think if we tried hard enough we could imagine some kind of connection to anyone. Should just a connection or identity with someone who's done something morally wrong make us feel ashamed for what they did? There is no logical reason to believe that. There are only, really, religious or emotional reasons to believe that.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Ancestors makes it seem as if we're talking about some guy a thousand years ago, as implied by a previous poster. I think that will corrupt the poll. Is it possible to amended it to past or present relatives (discounting children, dependents, and spouses)?

 

[RobbyMaQ]

Shouldn't feel shame, but still do.
I have a brother serving time in fed prison. I don't talk about it because I'm not proud that someone in my family has made such poor decisions. Despite my having done everything I reasonably could to prevent it, and having no control over his actions, I still feel ashamed about it when I know I shouldn't. I'm certain my 3 other siblings feel the same way.

 

[jamil]

Ancestors makes it seem as if we're talking about some guy a thousand years ago, as implied by a previous poster. I think that will corrupt the poll. Is it possible to amended it to past or present relatives (discounting children, dependents, and spouses)?

I don't see a way to edit that. I agree the wording could be confusing. Really, it wouldn't even necessarily be a relative. Could be a fellow citizen, a member of the same ethnic group, etcetera.

Mods, can you change the wording of the poll question as Kut suggests?

 

[KLB]

Ancestors makes it seem as if we're talking about some guy a thousand years ago, as implied by a previous poster. I think that will corrupt the poll. Is it possible to amended it to past or present relatives (discounting children, dependents, and spouses)?

Doesn't this stem from discussions of what people did in the early to mid 1800s? There is a big difference between what my father did and what my Great Great Great Great Grandfather did.

 

[jamil]

Shouldn't feel shame, but still do.
I have a brother serving time in fed prison. I don't talk about it because I'm not proud that someone in my family has made such poor decisions. Despite my having done everything I reasonably could to prevent it, and having no control over his actions, I still feel ashamed about it when I know I shouldn't. I'm certain my 3 other siblings feel the same way.

I can understand that. I think it's normal human emotion to feel shame about something like that. And maybe that's even a different kind of shame than what I'm talking about. I'm talking in the sense of the guilt induced shame one feels when his actions cross his conscience.

 

[pudly]

Follow the money. Always follow the money.

 

[jamil]

Doesn't this stem from discussions of what people did in the early to mid 1800s? There is a big difference between what my father did and what my Great Great Great Great Grandfather did.

Either way. Should you think any differently?

 

[IndyDave1776]

It seems to me that we are raising some unnecessary variables with a significant unanswered question:

First, the question: When you say 'shame' are you talking about the feeling I get when my 85 year old grandmother eats with her mouth open in public or the feeling that I should make concessions to some person or group based on events that happened over which I have no control, like a blowhard who fairly recently put forth the idea that white folks should give all their worldly possessions to a random black person? (This, I might add, before considering how many of our families contributed to taking their side in national events like that little disturbance Lincoln superintended.)

Second, the unnecessary variables. It seems to me that the matter of how far removed the relationship is not really significant to the matter of principle. Had my dad stolen Jamil's statue of the Eiffel Tower when he was a kid, I would return it in the process of settling the estate. As soon as you get away from a completely personal situation, it is impossible to calculate a score and impossible to assign responsibility for something done by someone else outside the control and perhaps in a different historic period than the person one is contemplating holding responsible. For example, slavery was a truly horrible institution, but I feel no remorse because someone who happened to be of the same general ethnic extraction did something which is recognized as wrong in contemporary society, and of course there is that matter of my family having contributed two men to the Union Army and none to the Confederate. Much in the same way, I consider a republic which operates according to the Constitution to by my proper inheritance as a descendant of a Revolutionary War veteran, but do not consider myself personally superior on account of the deeds of an ancestral grandfather.

 

[miguel]

Collective and inherited guilt are for those who lack critical thinking skills and/or don't want to live as a free people.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Collective and inherited guilt are for those who lack critical thinking skills and/or don't want to live as a free people.

 

[Que]

That's just dumb! We learn and take corrective action. We should also not take credit for the success of those who preceded us. Now, where is that turkey bacon?