In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me

[atvdave]

Didn't know were to put this.. Hope it's not a Dup....

Something needs to change.. I can see people getting shot if the police don't get their heads out of their ass... Use some damn common sense for gods sake before people get's killed.... This was all for a reported squatter.....


In Iraq, I raided insurgents. In Virginia, the police raided me.

 

[mrjarrell]

Fairfax county police have always been over the top on everything. Over the years they've managed to turn what was once a really great community into a police state. It was bad when I lived there and it's only gotten worse in the intervening years. They can pretty much do anything they want with impunity, and they have. They have left a trail of bodies and shattered lives behind them over the years. I see nothing changing there. The soccer moms got what they asked for. The guy in the article was lucky he survived his encounter with them. Other citizens haven't been so fortunate.

 

[jamil]

That was a good read. Thanks for posting.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Yeah...good read.

 

[Libertarian01]

I also agree that it was a very good read.

It has been said before, by Sir Robert Peel. Sir Peel created nine (9) guiding principles of law enforcement. Link: https://www.durham.police.uk/About-Us/Documents/Peels_Principles_Of_Law_Enforcement.pdf

Rule #2: The ability of police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police existence, actions, behavior and the ability of the police to secure and maintain public respect.

I find it interesting that without knowing of the Peelian principles they were utilized and found to be effective even in Iraq. Peel's rules appear to be multicultural.

The wisdom of Sir Peel's rules has not faltered, yet somehow our culture believes in our superiority over this obsolete 19th century thinking. I would argue that he was our superior.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Trigger Time]

I don't trust these entities. I know individual officers that are very good people, but I make no mistake that all it would take is some false tip or the wrong address or a politician passing an illegal law and they could be coming in my door.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

And thus you make Libertarian01's point for him. While I don't know if the current situation between law enforcement and the citizenry is a result of a plan on the part of those who hate our "American Way of Life" and wish to tear it down, or a natural outgrowth of the bureaucratic behemoth that has become our federal, state, and local governments, or just the decreasing respect for life and societal mores that has devolved over the past 40 years since Rowe V. Wade. What IS evident is that the "Officer Friendly" of my youth in the 50s and 60s is neither any longer perceived as such by the population in general, nor SAFE in being so. This situation is remarkably like what terror organizations strive for when attempting to turn a population against "the Authorities" in power.

 

[Leadeye]

Dc burbs? I would expect no less than a police state, leadership doesn't trust anybody outside it's own privileged circle. It's completely us verses them on every level, you're something to be managed at best, scraped off their shoes at worst.

 

[17 squirrel]

Fairfax county police have always been over the top on everything. Over the years they've managed to turn what was once a really great community into a police state. It was bad when I lived there and it's only gotten worse in the intervening years. They can pretty much do anything they want with impunity, and they have. They have left a trail of bodies and shattered lives behind them over the years. I see nothing changing there. The soccer moms got what they asked for. The guy in the article was lucky he survived his encounter with them. Other citizens haven't been so fortunate.

Interesting, as a guy who grew up just a short ride over the bridge in Md " the third exit Old Georgetown Rd and three blocks outside of the Beltway " and lived there for 40 + years, And i still own a home in Bethesda, And as a guy who has a few Aunts and Uncles along with cousins that live in Fairfax Co in Merrifield on Arlington Blvd and surrounding community's and a few other family members that live in Fairfax Co, and ex bro-sis inlaws that reside in Herndon. I am there multiple times a year seeing my son or other family issues. i have never heard one of my family members [ who are all local business owners ] say anything that would agree with what you stated in your post.
Maybe you happened to live in one of the small pockets that spoke Spanish fluently ????
Then again are you sure you didn't actually live in Prince Georgia's Co Maryland ??, They are big on police action with the citizens and elected officials, what you are saying it really sounds like PG co, maybe Hyattsville or Riverdale perhaps ???

 

[SSGSAD]

I actually studied Sir Robert Peel, in Criminal Justice, at IUPUI, back in 1988 !!!!!

 

[mrjarrell]

Interesting, as a guy who grew up just a short ride over the bridge in Md " the third exit Old Georgetown Rd and three blocks outside of the Beltway " and lived there for 40 + years, And i still own a home in Bethesda, And as a guy who has a few Aunts and Uncles along with cousins that live in Fairfax Co in Merrifield on Arlington Blvd and surrounding community's and a few other family members that live in Fairfax Co, and ex bro-sis inlaws that reside in Herndon. I am there multiple times a year seeing my son or other family issues. i have never heard one of my family members [ who are all local business owners ] say anything that would agree with what you stated in your post.
Maybe you happened to live in one of the small pockets that spoke Spanish fluently ????
Then again are you sure you didn't actually live in Prince Georgia's Co Maryland ??, They are big on police action with the citizens and elected officials, what you are saying it really sounds like PG co, maybe Hyattsville or Riverdale perhaps ???

PG's bad, but so is Fairfax Co. I lived in the Mt Vernon area, Woodlawn. No Spanish speakers there that I ever ran into, (guess you're trying to say something, huh?). Sorry your relatives haven't paid much attention to what the cops in their area have been doing over the years. They're likely just the type of folks who love what FCPD has become. The families of the people they've needlessly killed would surely disagree with you. I know what I've seen with my own eyes and kept up with in the years since I left the area.

 

[oldpink]

Fairfax County has veered politically into the opposite direction over the last few years, and this is the result we get?
Coincidence?

 

[vitamink]

Ok so cops show up to a burglary in progress to the one apartment that shouldn't have anyone in it, find a guy with address of somewhere else, don't shoot him, don't arrest him, apologize and they suck? The article assumes a lot about the situation.

1. It assumes the guy who called the police DIDN'T say, "a guy just broke into the model apartment and is still inside"
However assumes the 911 emergency dialer did say, "at most, the right honorable gentleman is merely taking a nap as he has no where to lay his weary head...oh and also he absolutely has no weapons, warrants, is in his right mind, and means no harm to anyone."

2. The article says, Instead of raising guns to a call of a "squatter" they should have knocked on the door and extended a hand...as again, the 911 caller didn't say "burglary" he dialed 911 to report an EMERGENCY and said, "homeless guy would appreciate it if you brought him a sandwich".

3. While in the infantry Mr Horton never pointed a gun at anyone he didn't kill (BS). Cops spend more time at the range than learning de escalating techniques. This is probably because no one has ever gotten killed from a poorly aimed de-escalation technique. Hopefully that same argument doesn't get used against anyone here. You're honor, ATVdave spends countless hours at the range perfecting his craft of dealing death, and is constantly in the INGO classifieds trying to increase his collection of military issued death machines...Not once did he take the time to de escalate the situation of the homeless gentleman who climbed through his window. Now he's dead and all he wanted was a place to take a nap. BAM guilty. BTW the article later mentions a case of the exact opposite. Every officer on scene was trained in crisis management and negotiations.

4. "When you kill an unarmed man with his hands raised..." there i was minding my own business when all of a sudden the police shot me. Not quite. Chris Rock did a video called how not to get your ass kicked by the police. I'm going to give some pointers on how not to get shot. We'll call it the lions of the Serengeti principle.

I know with 99.9% certainly that i will never be mauled by a lion. I live in Indiana. Other than the zoo, there are no lions roaming around. Now if I decide to take a trip to Africa, my chances of lion death increase. If i get on a safari bus tour of lions in their natural habitat, my chances go up even more. What if I decide to exit the bus? Boy that sure would be dumb...but i want a lion selfie. Now my chances are significantly higher, but i like to live dangerously. We can keep going with this but i think you get the idea. Police are nothing more than average human beings, outside of all the background checks, testing, and evaluation. Here is some mistakes you may wish to avoid: If you and your wife are having problems, leave before it becomes an bigger issue where either your wife or a neighbor call the police. Drinking to excess never makes a bad situation better. Should you decide that it's your wife's time to leave the house, don't take all of her stuff and throw it out the front door. If your wife makes you angry don't push her down. If we've made it to this point, then you're already on that african tour bus as she has just called the police. If your friend calls you on the phone and tries to be the voice of reason, then follow his advice...you may be able to get back on the bus. Of course if you tell your friend that you plan on killing the police if they come in then all bets are off. When the police arrive, don't continue any of the previous antics. Field goal punting your wife's favorite things across the yard may sway the police's opinion of you. When the police ask you to come out, talk to them...but when talking to them, don't inform them that you have a 357 and have no problem killing them as you will have just exited the tour bus. Leave the gun where it is...don't hold it in your hand (he eventually put the gun on the couch). Mr Geer is now in an emotionally charged situation between him and 5 officers pointing guns at him. Don't get to that point.

And finally, don't be such an ass that your own parents (only child) take you out of the Will...completely unrelated, but damn.

The article is the rare "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck" exception where writer has done no wrong. A guy calls the police about a burglary. The police find an open door to a place where no one should be. They clear the room and find the guy described by the caller. No one died.

Militarization horse ****:
We've seen this approach in militarized police responses to NONVIOLENT protestors and fatal shootings of unarmed civilians.

I fail to see the nonviolence of the protests. If a bunch of folks marched over to your house, you were outnumbered 700 to 1, they were chanting F INGO members/Kill INGO members, and had just beat up your neighbor, stole everything of value from his house then set it on fire...would you not grab a gun? Maybe some body armor? Since when is being outnumbered by people shouting they want to kill you while others committing armed robberies nonviolent? When i think nonviolent i think 4H fair. No one has ever said they wanted to kill me at a 4H fair.

He gives examples in iraq how the army went too far, like leveling a village because they thought they got shot at. He goes on to say they had more friends when they patrolled for bomb makers and weapons caches on foot. The cops in this situation didn't get a burglary in progress ...excuse me, wayward gentlemen with no prior convictions taking a nap call and subsequently level the building with a 40mm. I'm not seeing the connection. Even when the writer talked to the local iraqis and got the location of the bad guy they still went into said location with their rifles...just like how a citizen called and said this is where the bad guy is and cops went in with guns and got him.

 

[17 squirrel]

And police show up with a open front door. Hummmmmmm.

I got home from the bar and fell into bed soon after Saturday night bled into Sunday morning. I didn’t wake up until three police officers barged into my apartment, barking their presence at my door. They sped down the hallway to my bedroom, their service pistols drawn and leveled at me.

It was just past 9 a.m., and I was still under the covers.


It might have been different if he hadn't gone to the bar and went to bed with the apt door open.
I bet it would have been different had he locked the apt door.
Maybe the LEO would have knocked on the apt door.
The open door heightens the possibility to LEO that there might be a problem here.

 

[femurphy77]

I had to go back and reread the part about the burglary in progress but, damn! I must have missed it again:

"Earlier in the week, the managers of my apartment complex moved me to a model unit while a crew repaired a leak in my dishwasher. But they hadn’t informed my temporary neighbors. So when one resident noticed the door slightly cracked open to what he presumed was an unoccupied apartment, he looked in, saw me sleeping and called the police to report a squatter."

As to the cops charging into the apartment: "he looked in, saw me sleeping and called the police to report a squatter. " If "he" "looked in". . .well I'm just glad I'm not a cop and exposed to all this Monday morning quarterbacking by a bunch of third party keyboard lawyers.

 

[bradmedic04]

I thought this was going to be some kind of macabre Yakov Smirnoff joke.

 

[roscott]

There are two versions of this thread going around, but as I posted on the other one:


Thanks for posting. That was a pretty good article, but I would like to mention a few things in regards to the author's argument.

First, he treats the changed military mindset toward the people of Iraq like it was a complete night-and-day change. While I certainly agree that a gentle approach can often achieve much more than aggression can, ("a soft answer turns away wrath") I'm sure it was not a complete change from one tactic to another. Without a doubt, innocent Iraqis were still cuffed, soldiers still pointed weapons, and people were yelled at. It is simply the nature of the beast. A soldier, (or police officer) can do everything to be a kind and understanding individual, and sometimes innocent people will still be inconvenienced.

The author treats this reality like it can be avoided. To suggest such a thing sets up, for his readers, unrealistic expectations for law enforcement. (Or soldiers.) I have had officers grab their guns and yell at me to take my hands out of my pockets, when it turned out that I had not broken the law and wasn't a criminal. I don't fault them for it, because I understand that sometimes they must be cautious, even at the expense of my comfort. I'm sure similar events took place in Iraq, even after the de-escalation in use of force, as the author describes.

From the details given in the article, it certainly seems that the Fairfax County police reacted too aggressively. However, I hate to pass judgement with just those facts, and I'm saddened that the author has chosen to pass judgement on all police simply from this interaction. I have had the opportunity to interact with lots of law enforcement, in numerous circumstances, and I am willing to say that on the whole, our police departments DO adhere to the gentler approach that the author describes used in the later years in Iraq. For the overwhelming majority of citizens, they will never be the subject of police brutality. It is an incredibly small percentage of police that behave in such a manner, and while it is absolutely serious, it is nowhere near the pervasive levels that our media would like to suggest.

The author makes the connection between the raids he served in Iraq and the police raid on his temporary apartment. While the similarity is understandable, he goes one step further in making the connection between what happened to him and all police departments. That is not reasonable, and only serves to broaden the rift between our police force and our citizens, which does nothing but worsen things.

 

[Libertarian01]

To Roscott,

I respectfully disagree with some of your conclusions here. Not the idea overall, but I will try to briefly explain where I see an error in your logic.

#1) "First, he treats the changed military mindset toward the people of Iraq like it was a complete night-and-day change. While I certainly agree that a gentle approach can often achieve much more than aggression can, ("a soft answer turns away wrath") I'm sure it was not a complete change from one tactic to another. Without a doubt, innocent Iraqis were still cuffed, soldiers still pointed weapons, and people were yelled at. It is simply the nature of the beast. A soldier, (or police officer) can do everything to be a kind and understanding individual, and sometimes innocent people will still be inconvenienced." This part I agree with, to a point. While it may not have been "night-and-day" it most certainly could have been a very quick, ie. over several weeks, change. That would be in the context of the entire occupation indeed be a "night-and-day" change. Sure, some soldiers probably did continue to act in a manner counterproductive to winning the hearts and minds, but with constant pressure from officers and NCO's the paradigm shift could have been fairly fast.

#2) "The author treats this reality like it can be avoided. To suggest such a thing sets up, for his readers, unrealistic expectations for law enforcement. (Or soldiers.) I have had officers grab their guns and yell at me to take my hands out of my pockets, when it turned out that I had not broken the law and wasn't a criminal. I don't fault them for it, because I understand that sometimes they must be cautious, even at the expense of my comfort. I'm sure similar events took place in Iraq, even after the de-escalation in use of force, as the author describes." You seem to imply that it cannot be avoided. I disagree. With proper training and discipline any group of people can have their conduct altered. This is not unrealistic. It is a "get on board or don't let the door hit you on your way out" understanding that comes from the top down. Why on earth would LEO be required to "grab their guns and yell at me to take my hands out of my pockets" when a simple, courteous request could accomplish the same thing??? Sure, if you failed to comply escalation may(?) be required, but I certainly hope that rude, brash behavior isn't the starting point for interacting with a lawful citizen. There is nothing that says LEO cannot be cautious and respectful of your comfort. Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

#3) "From the details given in the article, it certainly seems that the Fairfax County police reacted too aggressively. However, I hate to pass judgement with just those facts, and I'm saddened that the author has chosen to pass judgement on all police simply from this interaction. I have had the opportunity to interact with lots of law enforcement, in numerous circumstances, and I am willing to say that on the whole, our police departments DO adhere to the gentler approach that the author describes used in the later years in Iraq. For the overwhelming majority of citizens, they will never be the subject of police brutality. It is an incredibly small percentage of police that behave in such a manner, and while it is absolutely serious, it is nowhere near the pervasive levels that our media would like to suggest.

The author makes the connection between the raids he served in Iraq and the police raid on his temporary apartment. While the similarity is understandable, he goes one step further in making the connection between what happened to him and all police departments. That is not reasonable, and only serves to broaden the rift between our police force and our citizens, which does nothing but worsen things." I agree with your assessment that it appears the police reacted too aggressively. I also agree that many LEO's are civil and courteous while maintaining control of situations. However, I DO disagree that the "militant mindset" is not becoming more of the norm for civil law enforcement. One only needs to be familiar with the writing of Rodney Balko who has years of experience covering law enforcement and wrote the book "Rise of the Warrior Cop" to appreciate the problem with new training and mindsets that are moving away from civil discourse and toward militant control. Is it everywhere? NO. Is it spreading? Yes, indeed. Also, we all base our opinions upon firsthand experiences. We should avoid doing so, yet it is unreasonable to presume that we dismiss them entirely. The author is fully justified to have the opinion that he does. His is only an anecdotal story that further supports Mr. Balkos larger reaching conclusions of many law enforcement organizations. Link: Rise of the Warrior Cop - WSJ

I would again remind the readers of Sir Robert Peel who created nine (9) simple rules regarding the nature and use of law enforcement power. Link: https://www.durham.police.uk/About-Us/Documents/Peels_Principles_Of_Law_Enforcement.pdf

I will only observe that I believe Sir Peel's rule #4 is being broken on a larger scale, and with the results that Sir Peel warned against.

#4) "The degree of cooperation of the public that can be secured diminishes, proportionately, to the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion in achieving police objectives." In other words, the more the police push people around, the less over time the people will be willing to cooperate. Once cooperation is lost, civil order will be in greater peril.

Law enforcement officers are people, both good and bad. I don't just mean in ethics or morals, but also in temperament. I am certain that there are many LEO's who carry out the technical side of their job with great efficiency, but whose personality and temperament undermine the public trust. At the same time there are probably many officers who may be a bit lacking in technical knowledge but are most excellent at deescalating a tense situation or a person who is angry.

The problem is, as Mr. Balko notes, that the training AND focus of new recruits may be counterproductive to promoting such temperaments within their force.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Woobie]

In regards to the change of tactics, techniques, and procedures in Iraq, it isn't as simple as it might seem. A lot of times it boiled down to the realities on the ground, i.e., current insurgent activity, civilian co-operation, etc.; and unit commanders often set the tone for how operations were to be carried out. When one unit rotated in, things might get more aggressive, as another one came in, the focus might shift back to "hearts and minds". Locals would pick up on this. They might spit at a soldier with an eagle on his left arm, but gladly point out an ied to someone with a horse or a lightning bolt on his.

And the same could be said for cops. The "command climate" as we call it in the Army, has a lot to do with how things go down on the street. And I don't mean large units, but the company level, or I suppose for cops, the precinct level. We assign a lot of chatter to high level conspiracies about us vs them and militarization, etc. At the end of the day, cops are people led by people led by people elected by voters. The same goes for the military. Things are never simple when people are involved.

 

[Libertarian01]

In regards to the change of tactics, techniques, and procedures in Iraq, it isn't as simple as it might seem. A lot of times it boiled down to the realities on the ground, i.e., current insurgent activity, civilian co-operation, etc.; and unit commanders often set the tone for how operations were to be carried out. When one unit rotated in, things might get more aggressive, as another one came in, the focus might shift back to "hearts and minds". Locals would pick up on this. They might spit at a soldier with an eagle on his left arm, but gladly point out an ied to someone with a horse or a lightning bolt on his.

And the same could be said for cops. The "command climate" as we call it in the Army, has a lot to do with how things go down on the street. And I don't mean large units, but the company level, or I suppose for cops, the precinct level. We assign a lot of chatter to high level conspiracies about us vs them and militarization, etc. At the end of the day, cops are people led by people led by people elected by voters. The same goes for the military. Things are never simple when people are involved.

Woobie,

You are indeed correct that it is never simple. Broad brush strokes can apply but there are always variances and anomalies.

Regarding "cops are people led by people led by people elected by voters" I saw somewhere that this is why, in many cases, when mayors are pushing for the State or Fed to do something they always bring police chiefs. Police chiefs are appointed by them and are thus controllable.

This is why you see far less sheriffs testify before hearings. Sheriffs are in the unique position of getting direct intel from the street and are ONLY answerable to the public as they are independently elected. It is far easier for a sheriff to tell a mayor to go pound sand than a police chief.

Sheriffs cannot be controlled like other police commanders.

Just an observation.

Doug