FFL

[mjones]

anyone have any advice on applying for a ffl? been considering this

 

[Scutter01]

For what purpose?

 

[mjones]

would be nice to get a little better price on guns and be able to order them and have them shipped to your home business be able to do a few transfers for friends and family would pay for the ffl fee.... if this is a possibility

 

[Scutter01]

I think you're going to be disappointed. From what I understand, the days of the coffee-table FFL to enhance your own collection are pretty much over. The BATFE expects you to be running a full-fledged firearms business now. That said, there are several INGO members who have FFL's and sell firearms out of their home, and have gone through the process recently. There are also several threads already covering your exact question. I'll see if I can track a few down.

 

[mjones]

thanks, not to good on searching for things

 

[pig957]

I was a coffee-table FFL until Mr. Clinton raised the price from $30 to $300 and a few other changes were made. I been out of it for so long that any info I have would not be worth passing on.

 

[DownByTheTracks]

The C&R license is about the only thing that lets you collect anymore, a Dealer (Type 01) license is reserved for those "doing business". That said, if you can get your local zoning commission to approve of this, and hold set business hours you could get it done. Business hours can be as simple as 6pm-7pm Wednesday night, but you have to actually be "open" for 6pm-7pm every week.

And since you'll have to be a "business", that means getting Retail Certificate from the State, as well as signing up for all of the other State programs funded from your pocket.

 

[dagibson1507]

I'm interested in this as well. I've got a piece of commercial property with a store front. Just don't know the ends and outs.

 

[avengedXT]

I have been interested in this as well - the gaining of an FFL license.

Perhaps first thing I need to focus on is wether or not I'd be serious about doing it as a business...

Do you guys think it has to be a retail storefront? Because (no joke) I've visited a dealer many a time that ran their whole operation out of their home. While their pull-barn off the house was the official gun store itself as it held their inventory, and is where they performed gunsmithing and ammo reloading services.

I too am not that great at searches - google and integrated searches only take me so far!

 

[mjones]

i would be leaning toward the pole barn shop open during the week nights just don't know how much bs you have to go to with the county and or the government to legally open a business

 

[Westside]

Ask Bob Cheeks at PSS was talking to him on Saturday, looking at getting the wife a walther P22, and he said the zoning board voted him down twice after spend $25K plus on legal fee's. so it looks like one more "Private" gun club will be going up.

I have also considered being an FFL but the only way I could find to get a decent price on guns was to be a "stocking Dealer." There is a lot of expense with having to keep and secure stock.

Also running a home business can create a lot of problems when it comes to taxes, insurance, and other things. If you decide to do it make sure you build a separate building on your property where all business will be conducted and make sure none of it comes "home."

*NOTE:I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

 

[littletommy]

I was interested in this myself, mainly for the ability to do transfers, but after delving into it, I figured I would blow most of my gun budget by jumping through all the hoops. I settled for a C&R.

 

[japartridge]

I'm interested in this as well, although my reasons are for running an indoor range/gun store in Bloomington area.

 

[DownByTheTracks]

In a lot of areas I don't think you would need "commercial storefront", and the ATF really doesn't care. That comes down to the local government and what their rules say. You may have to rezone your property to be commercial, which would require variances, and meetings, and fees, etc...

YMMV

 

[piercedjp]

My father in law has had an ffl for about 20 yearsand recently got it renewed. He told me this will likely be the last time he renews it because it has gotten so much harder. ATF wants him to do at least a couple hundred transfers a year to keep it and, as somoene else said, several of the wholesalers wont sell to you unless you have a large stock. The money you will spend getting it done would likely be more than you will save from using it.

 

[CoyoteCreekGuns]

This topic comes up quite frequently and as an individual who, up until December 2010, had their (01) FFL and ran my business out of my home let me see if I can shed some light onto the subject and help as many people out as I can.

Things To Think about:


First and foremost there are a few things one must think about prior to making the decision to move forward with the FFL application. These things include but are not limited to:

Why do you want/need an FFL?
​

• Many folks have the idea (myself included in the beginning) that with an FFL you’ll be able to purchase firearms for yourself at a significant discount over what you could purchase them for in a big box store (GM) or even a firearms shop (name your favorite one). The reality however your savings is only around 1% - 2%. Why? There is a multitude of reasons for this:

• Many firearms distributors will not work with non-stocking dealers or dealers without a store-front (these two factors need to be proven to the distributors in order to become a customer of theirs)

• Those distributors that you can work with will not provide you the same discount (based upon volume that your purchasing) that they will for stocking dealers and dealers that they’ve worked with for many years. (i.e. your dealer price is closer to street prices than the big box stores or local firearms shops

• Most distributors do flat rate shipping no matter how many firearms you’re purchasing and most ship overnight or two-day which costs more. So now you must add your already higher dealer price with the shipping price and you’re nearly at the street price for the firearm.

• NOT ALL FIREARMS ARE AVAILABLE... As a non-stocking dealer and one that doesn't place a significant number of orders, you will not be high on the priority list for what is called RESERVED which means that there are very few and they are being held for high priority customers only and as such it is hard to actually get your hands on one. (example right now would be the new Kimber 9mm, Sig P238, etc)

• Many folks think that they also get away without paying sales tax but this is also a myth. Dealers who decide to take inventory out for their own personal use, pay use-tax which in the state of Indiana is also 7% which means once again that you’re paying virtually the same as if you purchased the firearm from your local shop or online.

• I will no longer have to pay FFL fees for firearms that I have transferred in and it’s convenient because they can ship them directly to me.

• Although this may be convenient, remember that you’re still paying a use tax (or you should be) on each of these firearms as they are being taken out of your inventory for your personal use. In addition, this cannot be your only reason for opening a firearms business (i.e. FFL) as the BATFE requires you to mark a box on the application stating that you are doing this in order to make a profit (i.e. run a business not just collect firearms)

Running a business out of your home:

• Another aspect that many don’t think about is the fact that they are running a firearms business out of their home and the implications that result from doing this.

• First and foremost the county/township, that you live in must approve (zoning board) that they will allow such a business within your home/development, etc

• You MUST have hours of operation! This again is on the FFL application and must be filled out. These hours of operation are used by the BATFE in order to make surprise visits to your business (i.e. home) in order to check on your documentation and business practices.

• This is a business and if you’re in it to make a profit (BATFE requirement) then you will have customers coming to your place of business (i.e. Home) whom you do not know in order to purchase firearms/accessories who could potentially be denied/declined by the FBI background check and become disgruntled.

• If you advertise your business at all, there is now a general awareness that new, unused firearms exist within your place of business (i.e home) and there may be a greater risk of theft and home invasion (especially when you’re not there – on vacation etc)

• Although not required by the BATFE, the installation of both a video surveillance system and additional firearms safes should be taken into consideration and added to your start-up budget

Running of a Business

• Many folks are not used to or are unprepared to actually run a legal business and as such should remember the following points which are needed to do so successfully.

• Accounting – as with any business your accounting will be crucial in order to be successful. Accounting will be vital in order to successfully complete your business income taxes and file/pay your yearly sales tax with the state.

• Paperwork – probably more important than with most business is the fact that paperwork relating to firearms sales/transfers are vitally important and the lack of paperwork or the incorrect filling out of this paperwork can get your business shut down and put lives in danger.

• All 4473 documents must be retained for the life of your business and must be filled out correctly each and every time. If a customer doesn’t fill out a question (that they needed to) and you complete the sale and later find out that this person committed a crime with it, it can and would come back to you as the dealer who sold it to them with improper paperwork

• Advertising – To be successful, you’re going to need to advertise and honestly that can get quite expensive. In addition what you’ll find is that many folks already have their “favorite” gun shop so you need to find out what you’re going to do that is “better” for the customer than what their shop already does. This is not easy on a part-time basis…

Application Process:

• After you’ve looked into the Why and have addressed all of the items (there are probably more that Ihave missed but it’s a good starting point) and have decided to still move forward with the process, the next step will be to begin the application process. This too has a multitude of steps:

• Download the FFL Application: http://atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5310-12.pdf

• Download the Certification of Compliance: http://atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5330-20.pdf

• Download the Finger Print Card instructions and example: http://atf.gov/forms/download/fd-258-sample.pdf

• Order official Fingerprint cards: Distribution Center Order Form (bottom right hand corner 3rd from the bottom)

• Fill out and complete the FFL application (if you’ve completed other government forms before – income taxes etc – this will be easy just be sure to read it carefully)

• Fill out and complete the Certification of Compliance

• Go to your local Sheriff’s office or Police Department and attain finger prints after your finger print cards arrive.

• Get a Certified check for $300.00 to send in as the application/license fee

• Mail all of the necessary items to the BATFE (according to the information on the application)

While waiting to hear from the ATF, you’ll need to do the following: (most of which have some kind of financial fees associated with them)

• Register and attain a federal business Tax ID

• Register your business with the state (Sales Tax) as a registered retail merchant

• Go to your local Sheriff’s department and apply for your license to sell handguns

• Go to your local zoning board to gain approval of your business from a zoning perspective

BATFE Interview:

• If all is going well with your application, the BATFE will schedule an interview with you at the desired place of business (i.e. your home) this interview consists of the following:

• Oversight of the actual facility

• Questions pertaining to business practices (firearm storage, surveillance, etc)

• Training on the needed paperwork and the plethora of legal ramifications if it’s not done appropriately

• Overview of your application

The Waiting Game and Financial Impact:

A waiting game now begins for your license to be approved and arrive.
The average time that this entire application process takes (from beginning to end) is approximately 4-6 months and your initial financial out-of-pocket expenses (before ever purchasing a firearm) will run between $400 and $4,000+ (depending on the size of safe, type of surveillance equipment, license fees, LLC Fees, etc)




Conclusion:

At the end of the day, all of the above items need to be considered before one decides to move forward with attempting to attain an FFL license. This was in no way written to deter folks from moving forward with their decision, but instead written in order to educate folks in what to expect when determining whether or not to start a business. This list should also not be considered all-inclusive to the entire process as I have simply highlighted the process and over time the process can change. I simply pray that as this type of question is very common on this and other forums, that someone might find it useful when they ask the question. What does it take to get my FFL?


Blessings,
Keith
(former owner/operator of Coyote Creek Guns)

 

[Scutter01]

(Maybe this should become a Sticky?)

If that was written by you and not copypasta'ed from another site, I can add it to the FAQ where it will guarantee that no one will read it.

 

[CoyoteCreekGuns]

If that was written by you and not copypasta'ed from another site, I can add it to the FAQ where it will guarantee that no one will read it.

This was written by me, but I was unsure how to request it as a "sticky" or have it added to the FAQ's... Although a "sticky" would probably be read more frequently.

 

[Scutter01]

This was written by me, but I was unsure how to request it as a "sticky" or have it added to the FAQ's... Although a "sticky" would probably be read more frequently.

Stickies don't get read either. They also clutter up the top of the forum.

 

[Scutter01]

Ok, it's been enFAQulated.