To big to be a republic?

[mydoghasfleas]

This is a very good interview from a Prof. Donald Livingston. It truly makes you question the viability of a representative republic as large as the US. and whether the framers would have envisioned such a thing as workable.

Three parts so it would take a while to hear, but Prof. Donald Livingston makes some great points.

Interview with Prof. Donald Livingston | | Mike Church

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Without listening to the Professor, I'd have to say that it isn't the size of the Republic that's at fault, it's the failure of the people to keep the government confined to the limited role it is supposed to play in our lives. While our current situation may be the inevitable downslide of the consequences of people being able to vote themselves "bread and circuses", I don't think the size of the nation has anything to do with it. Rome was larger and lasted longer.

 

[mydoghasfleas]

Without listening to the Professor, I'd have to say that it isn't the size of the Republic that's at fault, it's the failure of the people to keep the government confined to the limited role it is supposed to play in our lives. While our current situation may be the inevitable downslide of the consequences of people being able to vote themselves "bread and circuses", I don't think the size of the nation has anything to do with it. Rome was larger and lasted longer.

Listen and see what is said. Its very good if you enjoy this kind of thing.

 

[hondatech2k2]

hmm, that was very interesting. Lots of good points were made.

 

[88GT]

Without listening to the Professor, I'd have to say that it isn't the size of the Republic that's at fault, it's the failure of the people to keep the government confined to the limited role it is supposed to play in our lives. While our current situation may be the inevitable downslide of the consequences of people being able to vote themselves "bread and circuses", I don't think the size of the nation has anything to do with it. Rome was larger and lasted longer.

Which, I would argue, is the result of the complete lack of homogeneity in our population. Size is far less a factor than singularity of purpose.

 

[mydoghasfleas]

Which, I would argue, is the result of the complete lack of homogeneity in our population. Size is far less a factor than singularity of purpose.

If you listen to the interview, he makes the point that size does matter..alot. (no funny jokes) And singularity of purpose goes against the definition of republics as well. (As well as liberty imo) That is kinda the point.

 

[Fletch]

Which, I would argue, is the result of the complete lack of homogeneity in our population. Size is far less a factor than singularity of purpose.

I don't recall anyone saying logic was allowed.

 

[88GT]

If you listen to the interview, he makes the point that size does matter..alot. (no funny jokes) And singularity of purpose goes against the definition of republics as well. (As well as liberty imo) That is kinda the point.

The preservation of the republic IS the singularity of purpose.

 

[mydoghasfleas]

The preservation of the republic IS the singularity of purpose.

Thanks Abraham. But I am more into liberty.

 

[88GT]

Thanks Abraham. But I am more into liberty.

Yeah, you let me know how well that works out for you without a framework for it.

 

[mydoghasfleas]

Yeah, you let me know how well that works out for you without a framework for it.

What did you think about the interview? And the way he addresed that issue?

 

[giovani]

If we were represented in the way the framers had in mind we would have over 10,000 reps in the house.
Not sure if this would be good or bad, but I think most people would feel more connected to their government.

 

[churchmouse]

Yeah, you let me know how well that works out for you without a framework for it.

Good point. His statement is one of the main reasons we are fragmenting and falling apart.
Freedom is not free folks, we need to remember that.

 

[88GT]

What did you think about the interview? And the way he addresed that issue?

Here's what I think about it:

Which, I would argue, is the result of the complete lack of homogeneity in our population. Size is far less a factor than singularity of purpose.

Something you might have missed: I didn't say size wasn't a factor. I said it was less of a factor than other things. 300 million people who want to preserve the republic as a means of preserving their liberty have a better chance of doing so than 300K people who are bitterly divided between liberty and slavery.

It is worth noting that I think you unfairly jumped the gun and assumed facts not in evidence with regards to my comment about the preservation of the republic.

 

[mydoghasfleas]

You assumed I was advocating a "non existant framework". This was addresed in the interview which you listened to.
Which facts did I assume not evidenced? You seemed to echo Lincons take on the "republic" with counties didnt you? The interview notes that a republic by definition cannot exist with 300 million people and different ways of preserving liberty (besides secession) And what are you talking about slavery for?!

Counterpoints to the points he actualy made would be what I would expect. After you listen to the interview.

 

[88GT]

You assumed I was advocating a "non existant framework".

No, I was assuming you saw liberty and the republic as mutually independent. Or that you think you can find liberty in some other manner.

You answered this question

Which facts did I assume not evidenced?

with this question.

You seemed to echo Lincons take on the "republic" with counties didnt you?

Nothing about my "preservation of the republic" comment had anything to do with Lincoln or "counties" or any of that ridiculous crap.

The interview notes that a republic by definition cannot exist with 300 million people and different ways of preserving liberty (besides secession)

For the third time......I think size is less of factor than political differences. (Wow, that statement is applicable on multiple levels.) Why is it that you can't just leave it at that? Size IS a factor. But only in as much as size contributes to the existence of differences. By itself, I don't think it has much influence.

I don't recall any definition of a republic I've ever read having a size limit anyway. And I see that you've admitted that the differences in the opinions held by the electorate are a factor in the sustainability of the republic. Sooooooo, I was right and you were wrong, na na na na boo boo.

And what are you talking about slavery for?!

It's called hyberbole. It's the opposite of liberty, and a play on the argument that some have put forth--not without merit--that if one is not free and is living such that any portion of the fruits of his labor are being separated from him without his consent by force or threat of force, then one is essentially in bondage. Try to think beyond the limited black men in cotton fields on plantations circa 1850-somthing.

Counterpoints to the points he actualy made would be what I would expect. After you listen to the interview.

You mean like the one where I said 300 million people with the same goal will have an easier time keeping the republic safe than 300 thousand bickering over which direction to take?

 

[ATOMonkey]

The size of the nation is not what undermines the republic. It's the failure to integrate all levels of government, starting with, but not limited to, the direct election of US Senators.

 

[jamil]

Sounds like idealistic secessionist horse to me.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Thanks Abraham. But I am more into liberty.

Liberty without a proper societal framework is anarchy. If your personal freedom is your highest goal and your prime concern, it's easy to deprive you of it; all it needs is for someone stronger than you to take it away.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Liberty without a proper societal framework is anarchy. If your personal freedom is your highest goal and your prime concern, it's easy to deprive you of it; all it needs is for someone stronger than you to take it away.

Absolutely. The pendulum swings the other way just as easily though.

Too much government or not enough government both result in someone stronger depriving you of your liberty.