Debating gun rights with family - be nice or let 'em have it?

[SC_Shooter]

Great link from BOR and advice from techres. I can particularly relate to the comment of a smart man paying the rent before rent day.

[mrjarrell]

Interestingly enough, I came across a relevant article after I had posted here. While the subject matter to be discussed is not guns the same rules would easily apply. From Fr33 Agents:

Since there are plenty of people here at Fr33Agents who can discourse at length on the various Archies and Isms, I’ve decided to address other aspects of liberty activism. Today I want to discuss dealing with family and friends who don’t understand and who become frightened, angry, or worse.
I suspect that many of you have encountered this. It can be painful, difficult and even confusing. It can be especially difficult if the people in question are older than you, and the image in your mind is that they should be more developed and informed than you. (And, in fact, they may actually be more experienced and better-informed in some important ways!)
The difficult thing about liberty ideas is that this is not only a black area in most people’s development, but it is also an area where they’ve been brainwashed by professionals. (Like their parents before them.)
Dealing with freaked-out family and friends is difficult. There may not be any great way to handle it. You may have to stop seeing them for a while, or at least avoid any conversation related to liberty. Sometimes, simple disengagement gives them some time to work through their issues. You can re-engage later.
You may also have friends and relatives that want to mock and ridicule you. I had a few relatives who would wait for a family gathering (a holiday, usually), then take a few others that hated me, wait till the whole group was together, and pull out their worst insults and red herring attacks — loudly. So, I understand how difficult and infuriating this can be. In the extreme, you may have to tell someone that they are vile, then walk away forever.
Other choices, however, are preferable.
In my experience, there are specific reasons for family and friends to freak out:

1. You are saying and doing things that are not supposed to exist. They have an image of the world (”brainwashed by professionals”), and you are going outside of it. The only tag attached to such things in their minds is “Here there be dragons.”
2. They have expectations of you. They have built a significant portion of their world around an image of what you will be and do. It disturbs them deeply when you deviate from it.
3. They fear that anything different will be punished. For example, when my dad first heard that I was to attend a meeting of libertarians, his immediate comment was, “You’re gonna go to jail.”
4. You leaving the pack means that they could have done it once, possibly many years ago. They caved-in to the pressure. Now, you are showing them up.
5. They may have specific issues that they’ve tied their self-esteem to. If they are, for example, “law and order” republicans, the idea of people being less-ruled or un-ruled will seem to them as a huge personal threat. The same goes for liberals devoted to “programs for the under-privileged,” or any other type who has tied their self-esteem to politics.
6. The negation of the meaning of their life. This is a combination of #2 and #5, but on a deeper level. They have built up some way of seeing meaning in their life; you – especially if you are their child – are going in an opposing direction, breaking the chain and zeroing them out.

There will, of course, be overlap and combination, but this covers at least some of the major issues.

Article continues at the source. It's worth the read.

[Paco Bedejo]

Originally Posted by mrjarrell

Interestingly enough, I came across a relevant article after I had posted here. While the subject matter to be discussed is not guns the same rules would easily apply. From Fr33 Agents:



Article continues at the source. It's worth the read.

Good quote mrjarrell.

Basically, it's like anything else. Most people aren't mentally prepared for anything but meaningless niceties & general agreement with the status-quo. Attempt to dig even a few inches deeper & they start freaking out.

[HandK49031]

+1 great post send it her way, and then ask her over for a family cookout, standing up for gun rights don't meen your crazy

[RCB]

My personal feelings on it are

1. No gun ban will ever get rid of guns. They will still be around, but only in the hands of those who want to control/harm you. That CAN include your government when it falls to corruption and tyranny. The Nazi party used the earlier Wiemar Governments gun registration (which was actually targeted at the NSDAP and Communist parties) to disarm their enemies once in power.

2. If you are going to exist in a world with weapons, you are well served to operate and maintain them, lest you or your descendants be prey to those with them. Fear comes from a lack of knowledge.

3. They are only a tool. They have no mind, no legs and are completely inanimate save for the will of their users. There are accidents, but that is the cost of living. Far more innocents are killed in car accidents everyday, than die by accidental shooting in a year.

4. I mention accidental shooting, because the rest are intentional. And as any weapon is at its master's will, that means that when someone else is harmed or killed, it was the will of that person. What tool they chose was incidental. It would take me more than five minutes to rattle off the things that one human could use to kill another with great efficiency.

5. People have to understand their fears. The fear of a gun is a mask for their fear of people. They are told to fear guns, because it's an icon. It may cause a brief period of depression and anti social tendencies should they realize the truth. After that however, they could take the first steps in really understanding the problems of the world.

That is what I try to get across to those who fear firearms.

[Bubba]

Originally Posted by mrjarrell

Looks good to me. I wouldn't forget to mention all those brave Korean store owners in LA who defended their property with AK's and AR's during the Rodney King riots.

Missed that one. Thanks

Originally Posted by SC_Shooter

Maybe you could issue her a challenge. Tell you that you respect her opinion (you did this at least twice already), but do not understand the logic. Ask her to cite specific facts that support her claims/beliefs and tell her that you will then either agree with the point, or cite another specific fact to counter the argument against guns and a new fact in support of 2A rights. Then it is her turn to either accept the argument or counter with another verifiable fact.

Originally Posted by Bill of Rights

If you present fact after fact, she goes on the defensive and says you're being argumentative. If she has to present verifiable facts, she will have a harder time justifying her position.

Good advice. Thanks for bringing me back to reason, instead of an emotional counterattack of facts and figures. Thanks also to the several people who supported my original candidate for a response, but I will attempt the high road. The counter post I have written is not entirely detached, but perhaps might invite further debate. If she can't come up to the level of reasoned discourse, then the gloves shall come off! I have responded as follows:

Originally Posted by me

After 12 hours of consideration, I think in the interest of civil debate I will not post the 1.5 page response I typed last night. I'll tone it down to the following: The right to express differing positions is one of the things that makes America great, but I find the phrasing of your status hateful, offensive, and poorly considered. I do not understand your basis for claiming that semi-auto rifles have no sporting purpose, nor your reasoning behind claiming gun rights are not discussed in Washington, nor behind the parallels drawn in your status. By what evidence do you support your statements? Or are you simply expressing a feeling unbolstered by reason? I rather think a well-schooled and intelligent person like yourself would not make such sweeping statements without educating themselves on the topic.

[henktermaat]

Originally Posted by Bubba

Missed that one. Thanks

Good advice. Thanks for bringing me back to reason, instead of an emotional counterattack of facts and figures. Thanks also to the several people who supported my original candidate for a response, but I will attempt the high road. The counter post I have written is not entirely detached, but perhaps might invite further debate. If she can't come up to the level of reasoned discourse, then the gloves shall come off! I have responded as follows:

That's very good

[Scout]

Originally Posted by dross

Here's going to be my answer the next time I visit my family, and they ask me, which they will, "Why do you need to carry a gun around?"

I'm going to say: "I think you're going to understand after I explain this to you. Trust me, I think you'll get it if you listen closely. Here goes - imagine you're out in public. It could be a dark night, or even a sunny day. You find yourself in a situation. You find yourself in a situation where you need to shoot someone. Now, if you don't have a gun, how are going to shoot someone? You won't be able to. See?"
(At this point I smile a wise smile and tap my temple lightly with my forefinger.)

It's just a matter of putting things simply.

That's too logical.


OP, try something like this.
"So, as I understand you, owning a gun is equal to rape? Well, owning a gun is legal, so rape should be legal."

Take their logic, twist it a little, and throw it back to them.

[rambone]

My whole life I found myself with very few liberal friends. I realized as an adult that I naturally gravitated away from them, even before I understood politics or got into guns.

Convincing a family member is somewhat of another task. If done improperly it can leave a permanent tension and dread of seeing that person. A good first step towards lessening their gun-hatred is to let them understand that you own guns to protect your family. Let them know that you want your wife to know how to use them because she wouldn't be able to fight off a male attacker and it makes the fight fair for her. Let them know that you aren't a murderer but a defender.

Pointing out actual attacks in you area make them realize that the world is not as safe a place as they might think. I point to one instance 5 minutes away from me that a woman was beat to death with a claw hammer while working at her job at a gas station. If she had been armed she might be alive. Evil exists in the world and it is silly to ignore it. That event occurred in Valparaiso in Dec. 2008.

Taking someone to the gun range is a good step in changing their opinions.

Sometimes you have to accept that some sheeple cannot be reached. Fighting with them will only make things harder on you and the family. Best to drop it where it is and avoid the subject. You made her aware that she offended you and might just leave it at that.

Its a touchy subject, with no easy answer.

[SavageEagle]

Originally Posted by ATM

Send it.

In regard to your question about politeness, I find nothing impolite in shredding a weak premise or calling out a fallacy during a debate with anyone.

As long as you attack their points and refrain from attacking them personally, I say let 'em have both barrels right up front.

Well, ATM took the words right out of my fingers. If she takes offense to it, it's a lost cause and nothing you can say or do will change her mind. It's sad, but true.