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  • Raoc

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    I've been thinking a lot, lately (dangerous, I know) about politics, conservatism, liberalism, etc... I've been trying to learn to articulate my views well, and to truly understand why I have them. In other words, I want to be able to state concisely and convincingly what exactly I believe politically, and be able to defend that position when asked "Why?".

    I have few liberal friends to debate with, but I've gotten into several political discussions lately, both in real life and on the internet, with supposed conservatives, and have found myself at times in outright opposition to some of their views.

    This has left me confused at times as to what conservatism really represents, and why, and how some of us have gotten so off-base.

    Let me tell you a little of what I believe. Feel free to agree or disagree, but please be willing to defend your position. An honest, healthy debate cannot help but clarify or correct our principles.

    I am a conservative. To me this represents the view that our nation was founded in liberty upon certain principles. The primary theme of our founding document is limited government and the ensurance of liberty. Based on this, we can see that liberty and government power are squarely in opposition to one another. Wherever one advances, the other retreats.

    I believe that conservatives and Republicans do a poor job of remembering this basic principle, and do an even poorer job of promoting it. I believe that all the minority groups and special interest groups that have become known as the voting base of the Democratic party have been lured there by false promises and world-class marketing, all while we "principled conservatives" expect the message to speak for itself.

    There is a lot of talk about winning in November. We will. But the battle doesn't end in November, in fact, it will only be beginning. The only way to take back this nation of ours which I love so dearly, is to subvert the Democratic base to conservatism.

    That sounds preposterous, I know, but the Democrats got everyone to beleive their lies, shouldn't it be possible to get those same people to beleive the truth?

    Who are the typical liberals?
    Artists, for whom the freedom of expression is their livelihood?
    Activists, for whom the freedom of speech is essential?
    Women, for whom only conservatism offers freedom of opportunity?
    Blacks, for whom only conservatism offers equality, rather than lowered expectations?
    The poor, for whom only conservatism says "There is no height you cannot reach, so long as you are willing to work for it."
    Gays, for whom personal liberties and the right to privacy allows them to live as they choose?

    These are all minority groups which were lured to the Democrats on promises of a better life. Is it any surprise that if most people were asked to describe a typical conservative, they would describe an average white man?

    At the same time, the Republican party has confused and clouded its own ranks with anything but conservatism. Republicans have been responsible for the exchange of liberty for security under the Patriot Act. Republicans have been responsible for record spending (a record the Dem's recently took back, of course). Republicans have been responsible for expensive and intrusive expansion of the Dept. of Education and farm subsidies, as well as proposing over-reaching and intrusive acts such as the definition of marriage amendment. We even had a candidate who almost had the Republican presidential nomination, who was responsible for one of the most comprehensive and earliest statewide health care program in the country.

    We conservatives have lost, because we are lost. We have been abandoned by those who we thought represented us, and marginalized and demonized by the opposition. We must all study and learn true conservatism, and evangelize.

    What do you think? I know a lot of you may disagree with some of my points, and that's fine with me, and if you can convince me that I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it.
     

    Fletch

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    What do you think? I know a lot of you may disagree with some of my points, and that's fine with me, and if you can convince me that I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it.

    I only disagree with one point. Based on what you've stated here, you're not a conservative. You're a libertarian.
     

    Raoc

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    I only disagree with one point. Based on what you've stated here, you're not a conservative. You're a libertarian.

    The founder of the modern conservative movement, Barry Goldwater, would disagree with you. Or he might say that they are one in the same. That is what I'm trying to get at.

    What is basic, fundamental, functional conservatism?
     
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    Fletch

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    The founder of the modern conservative movement, Barry Goldwater, would disagree with you. Or he might say that they are one in the same. That is what I'm trying to get at.

    What is basic, fundamental, functional conservatism?

    I guess the dividing line, with regard to this board anyway, is where you stand on foreign adventurism.
     

    dross

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    The problem you have is that you can't just decide what a term means if you expect to communicate it to others. The terms "liberal" and "conservative" have taken on a meaning you won't get past.

    I see the main argument today taking place on two levels. One level is libertarianism vs. socialism, or, if you prefer the intermediate level of socialism, social democracy.

    The other level is libertarianism vs. cultural conservatism.

    Like it or not, when you say you are a conservative, you put yourself in the camp of the cultural conservatives, or at least you will be perceived that way by most on the left and the right.
     

    JDonhardt

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    I would rather see the major election battles fought between libertarians and conservatives than between conservatives and democrats.
     

    IrishSon of Liberty

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    Who are the typical liberals?
    Artists, for whom the freedom of expression is their livelihood?
    Activists, for whom the freedom of speech is essential?
    Women, for whom only conservatism offers freedom of opportunity?
    Racial minority (ie ?-American), for whom only conservatism offers equality, rather than lowered expectations?
    The poor, for whom only conservatism says "There is no height you cannot reach, so long as you are willing to work for it."
    Gays, for whom personal liberties and the right to privacy allows them to live as they choose?

    These are all minority groups which were lured to the Democrats on promises of a better life.


    "Guberment" has cradled away the fear of personal responsibility. The safety net has become a pillow top mattress.
     

    Raoc

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    The problem you have is that you can't just decide what a term means if you expect to communicate it to others. The terms "liberal" and "conservative" have taken on a meaning you won't get past.

    I see the main argument today taking place on two levels. One level is libertarianism vs. socialism, or, if you prefer the intermediate level of socialism, social democracy.

    The other level is libertarianism vs. cultural conservatism.

    Like it or not, when you say you are a conservative, you put yourself in the camp of the cultural conservatives, or at least you will be perceived that way by most on the left and the right.

    That is part of my point, that Americans have forgotten what conservatism means. Just because it has taken a different connotation with the people, doesn't mean that the word doesn't still have meaning. The fracturing of the right has allowed the left a stranglehold on this country. Conservatism is based on principle, and those of us on the right have become so wrapped up in the details of our principles that we have become intolerant of even slightly different interpretations of those principles. We have people calling themselves constitutionalists, libertarians, Republicans, conservatives, and every manner of title we can think of to make ourselves feel special. This is the same thing the Democrats have done with the hyphenation of America. Hispanic-American, African-American, Chinese-American. They have placed whatever special group you belong to in greater standing than what we all are: Americans.

    Conservatives have done the same. We cling to our special little group as if we alone are the true patriots. We have placed that which distinguishes us ahead of that which we share.

    Our liberty is what makes this nation great. Excesses of government act in opposition to that liberty.

    We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
     

    leftsock

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    What do you think? I know a lot of you may disagree with some of my points, and that's fine with me, and if you can convince me that I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it.

    If you can agree that individuals (adults) can make their own decisions, I think you might enjoy Libertarianism.

    We can all spout our beliefs and then place a label upon ourselves. When we find that label doesn't conform to society's view, our choices are to accept society viewing us in a manner that doesn't conform to our beliefs (very frustrating), we can work to change society's view of beliefs associated with that label (very hard), or we can find a label that fits better, which can be difficult to accept.

    I like liberalism. I used to like the Democratic Party due to their association with liberalism. BUT, I like classical liberalism, which is not what society considers "liberalism," which is social liberalism. And the differences between the two separated me from the group. Though libertarianism isn't an exact substitute for classical liberalism, they are most in line. My alternatives are to do my own thing or change the Democratic Party's philosophical views.
     

    Fletch

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    We have people calling themselves constitutionalists, libertarians, Republicans, conservatives, and every manner of title we can think of to make ourselves feel special.

    I disagree that it's to make ourselves feel special. It's a search for an accurate label. Conservatives embrace state power when it comes to things like criminal justice. They tend to be just as uncritically fawning over the State's power to "get stuff done" in this area as liberals are when it comes to social programs -- witness the praying at the altar of Arpaio going on in the Break Room. As a person who is suspicious of any claims that the State can accomplish anything worthwhile without detrimental unintended consequences, neither conservative nor liberal really describes me. That's why I'm a libertarian, not a conservative -- it has nothing to do with trying to differentiate myself from other conservatives, because I'm not a conservative. I don't belong in that bucket. "Conservative" does not mean "not a Democrat", it communicates a particular package of beliefs, to many of which I am vehemently opposed.
     

    dross

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    That is part of my point, that Americans have forgotten what conservatism means. Just because it has taken a different connotation with the people, doesn't mean that the word doesn't still have meaning. The fracturing of the right has allowed the left a stranglehold on this country. Conservatism is based on principle, and those of us on the right have become so wrapped up in the details of our principles that we have become intolerant of even slightly different interpretations of those principles. We have people calling themselves constitutionalists, libertarians, Republicans, conservatives, and every manner of title we can think of to make ourselves feel special. This is the same thing the Democrats have done with the hyphenation of America. Hispanic-American, African-American, Chinese-American. They have placed whatever special group you belong to in greater standing than what we all are: Americans.

    Conservatives have done the same. We cling to our special little group as if we alone are the true patriots. We have placed that which distinguishes us ahead of that which we share.

    Our liberty is what makes this nation great. Excesses of government act in opposition to that liberty.

    We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.

    The classic definition of conservative is someone who wants to maintain the status quo. Where are you getting your definition of conservative? You imply the definition you're using is the absolute definition. Please defend that argument.
     

    pudly

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    The classic definition of conservative is someone who wants to maintain the status quo. Where are you getting your definition of conservative? You imply the definition you're using is the absolute definition. Please defend that argument.

    I'm not sure where you get that as a definition for conservative politics. No one believes that everything is always perfect politically and things should not be adjusted periodically as the world changes. That is an incredibly simplistic and unrealistic definition. For example, a social conservative might want to make abortion illegal. A fiscal conservative might want to reduce taxes and govt spending. Those are absolutely not supporting the status quo.

    If a liberal wants to support the current abortion rights, then they support the status quo. By your definition that makes them conservative. :noway:
     

    dross

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    I'm not sure where you get that as a definition for conservative politics. No one believes that everything is always perfect politically and things should not be adjusted periodically as the world changes. That is an incredibly simplistic definition. For example, a social conservative might want to make abortion illegal. That is the very definition of not supporting the status quo.

    If you read the whole thread you'll understand that's the point I'm making. I'm telling you what the classic definition was for many years. All I'm saying is that you can't use the term "conservative" and expect anyone to know where you stand on any particular subject. That's why terms such as libertarian, or socialist, or cultural conservative are much more accurate.

    My point to the OP is that he is advancing his definition of conservative as if it is a settled point, which it is not.
     

    Raoc

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    The classical political spectrum does indeed, place conservatives on the side of maintaining the status quo, or, in more extreme forms, moving back toward an older way of doing things. The status quo as it exists, is a government founded and regulated by the constitution. That is what we ought to be moving back toward, rather than a government who simply ignores its constitutional foundation and restraints. The founders clearly created a nation based in liberty, and were adamant that in order to maintain that liberty, government had to be restrained.

    While other, more specific labels, do in fact describe more precisely what a person believes, they may not necessarily be useful labels, and I see many of them as a sub-set of the larger conservative group. We have gotten so tied up in defining ourselves as separate from one another that we have forgotten that many of these various groups all fall under the banner of conservatism. You may consider yourself a libertarian, but I maintain that libertarianism is simply a sub-set of conservatism.
     

    Fletch

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    You may consider yourself a libertarian, but I maintain that libertarianism is simply a sub-set of conservatism.

    When I'm helping the fight against "blue" laws, alcohol restrictions, drug prohibition, laws prohibiting gambling, prostitution, and other forms of consensual non-violent conduct, the people I most often see in opposition are "conservatives". When I stand up for the basic human rights of individuals who have fallen afoul of society's good graces, such as ex-convicts and paroled sex offenders, my opposition is again usually "conservatives". The folks generally helping are "liberals". I fail to see then, how libertarians and conservatives can all be lumped in together.
     
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