Some of my thoughts on Immigration - LONG post!

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  • Libertarian01

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    To All,

    This is going to be a bit longwinded and probably a bit rambling. I will try to clean it up before posting but it is late and I want to add some opinions to this issue.

    The first thing I think would be good is a little history that we should all keep in mind. In the past, normally, if you could get here you could get in! Remember Ellis Island? Here was the formula:

    #1) Get on the boat;
    #2) Ride the boat;
    #3) Arrive at Ellis Island;
    #4) Do not have any obvious contagious disease;
    #5) Do not be a really nasty criminal;
    #6) You are in!

    I want to emphasize that w/ those two (2) limits 98% of immigrants were allowed entry into the USA. No classes, no language requirements. You are here, you are in!

    Chinese were treated differently and limited in numbers, but that was because they were "taking white folks work."

    Every major wave of immigrants have been subjected to prophecies of destruction of America! Each prediction has failed to come to pass. There were towns in the midwest where the official business language was German! With each wave of immigrants the first generation normally has had a hard time learning english and by the third generation all they speak is english.

    There may be some folks I work w/ that are here illegally, I don't honestly know. All are women, kind, and decent. I believe that the vast majority if immigrants, legal and illegal, are decent folks who are not malicious, have no wish to harm anyone and are simply looking to make a better life for themselves and their families. They may want to live here or not, but most are not out to intentionally harm anyone else.

    Our current immigration laws seem to be unjust due to the inefficiency of our government bureaucracy. Say a family of four (4) wants to move to the United States and be legal. Mom, Dad, and a 12 year old son and 14 year old daughter. If it takes four (4) years for us to make them legal all of a sudden the daughter cannot move here because she is an adult and must start the process all over again.

    I have heard of some people waiting over TEN YEARS to become citizens! Now, we may haggle over the time, but should it REALLY take 10 years for a decent person to become legal? Especially considering that most of our ancestors who immigrated here had to wait a few hours or days AT THE MOST before entering America - AND getting citizenship w/ that to boot!

    I am by no means suggesting that things are the same today as they were 100 years ago, but I'd say the United States turned out damn well with all the foreigners that "overhwhelmed" us not so long ago.

    One of the ladies I work w/ doesn't speak much english, but the other day she handed me a business card. Her face was beaming and she was so full of pride that she had these to hand you. Through her kids translating she explained that she has started her own business of being a seamstress, so any sewing I need she was available. This one person has, on her own in a country where she is still struggling with the local language (but working on it) has gone from unemployed to entrepreneur. Who knows what will happen with this business? Statistically, she will fail in the first five (5) years like any other business venture. But considering the hurdles she is still trying. If by some longshot she succeeds she will grow and create jobs. I will wait and see.

    By the way, besides Ellis Island that was not the only way in. For those south of the border if you were able to walk across and set up shop, you were in.

    The largest problem I think we have w/ illegal immigration today is not the legal/illegal side but rather our own countries welfare state system. When immigrants arrived 100 years ago it was somewhat like portrayed in the movies:

    #1) ride the boat;
    #2) Ellis Island;
    #3) Ferry to New York City;
    #4) Find job or STARVE!

    There is harm caused by illegal immigration today, but it is not malicious or even intended. It is caused by the system our elected, mostly old white men have built over the last 50 years. Through medicaid and almost countless other programs designed to help the poor harm is done to the whole economy of the United States. This harm is caused by people who have never, ever paid into the system taking money out of the system. Can we truly blame the immigrant for this damage or would we be better served to look in the mirror and rid ourselves of these programs that are inefficient at best and wasteful beyond measure at the worst?

    I think part of the problem we have is that it is very easy to fall into the "us v/s them" mentality. It is a lot easier to find a scapegoat for our problems than it is to deal w/ the big issues we face. By constantly raging at "them" we don't have to make the really hard decisions about changing our own system, and by that I mean returning to a mindset of:

    #1) Charity by churches and NGO's, NOT the Government;
    #2) Electing candidates who truly want fiscal responsibility, not the candidate who is simply going to do the least damage;
    #3) Realizing that these "new folks" are only doing things that our grandpappy or greatgrandpappy did as well (statistically speaking).
    #4) Looking upon the exposure to another culture here as an opportunity to learn and NOT an affront to "my way."

    I think that we also fail to understand that most of our forefathers and mothers who arrived here for the first time endured the same disdain as the newcomers today. Irish, Italian, Polish, Russian Jew, German, Greek, etc etc.

    I don't want to downplay the fact that with all of these did come criminals and folks of unsavory character. But we have survived them and learned how to deal with them. We also know that the bad guys are an extremely small minority of the overall numbers of people who come to the United States.

    Finally, I want to say that I am against illegal immigration but I don't get as fired up about it as I used to. I try to keep it in the context that ALL immigration has positives and negatives with it. Immigrants give us a new breath of fresh ideas, and with that comes a cultural clash from which we can get friction burns or learn something new. The nice thing is we get to decide how we react.

    I wish we would simplify immigration rules to the good old days.

    The New Colossus
    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
    With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
    Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
    A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
    Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
    Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
    "Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

    We are normally proud of the statue upon whose great shoulders this poem was written. I am still proud of what it stands for.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    jknapp

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    i just think that if theyre not legally here they should dissappear. If they want to be here like everyone else, they should come here legally like everyone else. all they do is steal our jobs for a few dollars an hour. if you watch shows on immigration, alot turn into "gangbangers" as tv calls it. they live in the hood(cant get loans or jobs to pay for nice things) and they fall into drugs and violence. We get rid of illegals, we get rid of a little bit of our problems.
    If they come legally then i have absolutely nothing against the,,, but they should all have to learn english... our country, our language :]
     

    Fletch

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    I've actually been thinking of writing something along these lines. Now I don't have to.

    Thanks Libertarian01!!!
     

    wtfd661

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    Come here legally, get a job, pay taxes, learn English, teach your children to respect America, don't try to force us to become a little version of the country you left, don't look for a hand out from the government, enjoy life.

    Thats my stance on immigration.
     
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    Come here legally, get a job, pay taxes, learn English, teach your children to respect America, don't try to force us to become a little version of the country you left, don't look for a hand out from the government, enjoy life.

    Thats my stance on immigration.
    :+1:That exactly how I feel. Especially the part about teach your kid to respect America. To many kids at my school say that America sucks and mexico or where ever else they came from is better. Just makes me so angry. If your home country is so much better, then why don't you go back.
     

    jedi

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    :+1:That exactly how I feel. Especially the part about teach your kid to respect America. To many kids at my school say that America sucks and mexico or where ever else they came from is better. Just makes me so angry. If your home country is so much better, then why don't you go back.

    Are these
    -"non native born" kids (ie. Kids not born here to immigrants parents as in the kids where born in mexico and brought here),
    -1st generation (parents were born in mexico; kids here),
    - 2nd generation (grandparents born in mexico; parents & kids here)
    - 3rd generaton (great-grandparents born in mexio only)

    It is typical of non natve born kids to still have very, veyr strong ties to their mother country and "hate" the US. The hate is more towards why their parents moved then the US in general. As they are having to adjust to another culture. These kids speak more spanish then enlgish and have a hard time adjusting the older they are.

    1st generation tend to have some fond memories of the country their mom/dad is from but while they love to visit it don't want to live there. They tend to speak 50/50 english/spanish but the majority of them will lose the spanish as they get older and move away from home. This group has the hardest time ID themseleves. Many grew up in "the gettho" (little mexico in the US), did what their parent's culture taught them but as they grow up and are on their own and take in the american culture (no faith, moral issues, etc..) they have a big conflict on what is right and wrong and they don't fit in with their parent's culture (not born or have memories of the motherland) but also dont feel they belong in the US culture completely. They label themselevs mexican-american, and move in and out from both cultures.

    2nd generation typically understand spanish but can't talk it. Neither do they watch spanish TV or follow the news outside of the US. They may have national flags of their grandparents but for the post part are typicaly US kids. They may label themselevs "mexican american" if it will help (job wise, grants, etc..) but otherwise they are US.

    3rd generation neither understand nor can speak nor read spanish and have no notion of the motherland's history. They are foreigners to it and have no interest in knowing about it. they are 100% american. As in they don't label themselevs mexican-american. They are just american.
     

    6birds

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    jknapp
    ...all they do is steal our jobs for a few dollars an hour. Which jobs, the lawn mowing ones, or the picking of the vegetables?

    if you watch shows on immigration, alot turn into "gangbangers" as tv calls it. What is your news source for the part where you say "the TV calls it"?
    ...they live in the hood(cant get loans or jobs to pay for nice things) I thought you just said they have "your jobs". Are they employed or not? Make up your mind please.

    ...and they fall into drugs and violence. So with the illegals gone, the drugs will go with them? Really?

    Great post!
     

    JBusch8899

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    Most people view the words of Lady Liberty, as something to be said tenderly. Quite the opposite.

    It is meant to be recited with vigor and challenge. As spoken with almost a contempt to the European powers of the time, that this country will take the worst and desolate of their people, and still enjoy a greater success.

    While the words may have somewhat been redirected over time, the meaning of the words haven't.

    With that said......

    When a person emigrated, it was expected that it be done lawfully, and persons once here, obey the law. They were expected to not be a burden to society, but to become a part of it, constructively contributing to it.

    While many didn't possess a nickle when they arrived to the shores of this country, most viewed this country as the very opportunity to allow them to succeed. Today, the immigrants are much better off, having sponsors and what not; but unfortunately, the country is not better off today because of immigration. Our expectations as a country has also changed, as we no longer (realistically and expressly) require our immigrants to learn the English language, or hold similar cultural beliefs and practices.

    Pluralism is all good, but society has suffered because of those who refuse to hold the very tenants which has made America great.
     

    SavageEagle

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    <SNIP>

    The largest problem I think we have w/ illegal immigration today is not the legal/illegal side but rather our own countries welfare state system. When immigrants arrived 100 years ago it was somewhat like portrayed in the movies:

    #1) ride the boat;
    #2) Ellis Island;
    #3) Ferry to New York City;
    #4) Find job or STARVE!

    There is harm caused by illegal immigration today, but it is not malicious or even intended. It is caused by the system our elected, mostly old white men have built over the last 50 years. Through medicaid and almost countless other programs designed to help the poor harm is done to the whole economy of the United States. This harm is caused by people who have never, ever paid into the system taking money out of the system. Can we truly blame the immigrant for this damage or would we be better served to look in the mirror and rid ourselves of these programs that are inefficient at best and wasteful beyond measure at the worst?

    I think part of the problem we have is that it is very easy to fall into the "us v/s them" mentality. It is a lot easier to find a scapegoat for our problems than it is to deal w/ the big issues we face. By constantly raging at "them" we don't have to make the really hard decisions about changing our own system, and by that I mean returning to a mindset of:

    #1) Charity by churches and NGO's, NOT the Government;
    #2) Electing candidates who truly want fiscal responsibility, not the candidate who is simply going to do the least damage;
    #3) Realizing that these "new folks" are only doing things that our grandpappy or greatgrandpappy did as well (statistically speaking).
    #4) Looking upon the exposure to another culture here as an opportunity to learn and NOT an affront to "my way."

    <SNIP>

    Finally, I want to say that I am against illegal immigration but I don't get as fired up about it as I used to. I try to keep it in the context that ALL immigration has positives and negatives with it. Immigrants give us a new breath of fresh ideas, and with that comes a cultural clash from which we can get friction burns or learn something new. The nice thing is we get to decide how we react.

    I wish we would simplify immigration rules to the good old days.

    <SNIP>

    First, let me say, Great post. I really do agree with you. It's not that I have a problem with immigrants coming to this Country, but it's what they do when they get here.

    I consider myself a law abiding citizen. Sure, I don't obey The speed limits all the time, or wear my seat belt, but I do abide by a lot of laws I consider stupid cause I value my freedom. I.E. LTCH.

    What these illegals do is what I have a problem with. Use fake SS#'s to get jobs that pay them, practically tax free in some cases; Come here illegally period; Use welfare assistance programs instead of trying to make it on their own like our ancestors did; Come here transporting drugs (Coke, Heroin, Meth); Come here only to make some money and only get the job because of "affirmative action" laws, passing over CITIZENS who NEED the job. Then they send the money back to their homeland like Chile, Brazil, Mexico, etc. and not spend the money here keeping the money in our economy. (Last I heard, somewhere in the range of the Billions gets taken from our economy this way) Things like that are what **** me off.

    I don't have a problem with those that come here and try to make a life for themselves, abide by our laws, and become a citizen like the lady you described in your story.

    The first part of your post I quoted I completely agree with and that's something that needs to be changed. The whole system needs changed. Government needs to stop meddling in welfare period and leave it to the private sector.

    The second part is a great point too. Immigration does have it's positives and negatives, but in this day and age, with all the problems this Country has, we have to start getting a rope around immigration as a whole. With terrorism, an economic depression and pending collapse, and being on the verge of civil unrest.... We've made it to easy for illegals to actually BE terrorists and could endanger this Country to a larger attack than 9/11.

    We have to get control of our borders. We can't be 100% efficient at securing the borders, but we can't let what's happening now continue. When our government fails at it's most important job, keeping this Country safe, the States and the People have a DUTY to take up the slack.

    We have to. If we don't start being proactive about securing our borders, weeding out those milking the system, and figure out some way to make sure all workers are LEGAL citizens/immigrants, this Country is going to have a bigger wake up call than 9/11.

    Remember, Mexico is still upset about losing the Southwestern States. With the violence erupting over AZ's immigration law, I wouldn't put it past them and the drug cartels to start some BS the first opportunity they get. Read that last sentence as economic collapse, National civil unrest/civil war, etc.

    Still, great post, and sorry for my long winded post as well.

    :patriot:
     

    serpicostraight

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    i just moved to indiana 4 years ago from phoenix. i didnt grow up riding a john deere and surrounded by other hoosiers. i spent alot of years in arizona and if you really think illegal immigrants are good hard working people that come here to better thier lives feel free to contact me and ill be more than happy to show you around phoenix. of course phoenix does top the list in kidnappings,home invasions,auto thefts and several other crime stats thanks to those illegal immigrants that are here to better thier lives so no promises on safety in phoenix. there are some good ones that come across but not many and anybody that thinks different then the closest you have to come to being around them is eating at taco bell.
     

    96firephoenix

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    #1) Get on the boat;
    #2) Ride the boat;
    #3) Arrive at Ellis Island;
    #4) Do not have any obvious contagious disease;
    #5) Do not be a really nasty criminal;
    #6) You are in!

    when they hop the fence or swim the river, there's no way to verify steps 4 and 5...
     

    neil221211

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    The main thing being left out of this post is the immigration process itself. My wife is from Guatemala. The only reason she was able to get a visa to come here is because she went with her mom and was lucky enough to get one. A person in Mexico or any other Latin American country cannot just walk in and get a visa to come here legally! The reason being for that is their country does not know if the will come back or not or maybe the official on duty that day is in a bad mood.

    A lot of people think that when a person from another country marries with an American that they are automatically legal! That's hilarious I wish it was that easy. If it were I could have used the money we spent getting my wife legal on some new toys!

    The immigration process needs fixed no doubt about that. Some people want to add additional fees to become legal. Just for my wife alone we spent over a thousand dollars!! Just imagine how much it would cost for a whole family.

    I don't agree with the whole amnesty idea but I definitely disagree with making the whole process more expensive. I do however agree with making them learn English. I used to work at a factory where the majority were illegal. I worked there for eight years and then they filed bankruptcy and closed. Some of the Hispanic people there actually could speak English others didn't care to learn which made our job harder because of the language barrier.
     

    6birds

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    What these illegals do is what I have a problem with. Use fake SS#'s to get jobs that pay them, There is a solution on place that is not used. They are working the loopholes, just like people who go to the "emergency room" and leave without full payment. They do it, and so have you.

    practically tax free in some cases; Explain this part. My understanding is that Joe's lawn service pays taxes on the Illegal SSN, the illegal SSN pays the taxes on his "income", and then when the illegal leaves at the end of the season, the "taxes" stays behind. Do you have a different experience?

    Use welfare assistance programs instead of trying to make it on their own like our ancestors did;
    You could say this about a large percentage of American too.


    Come here transporting drugs (Coke, Heroin, Meth);
    You're really reaching here. Again, are you suggesting that the drugs will leave when the borders are closed?

    Come here only to make some money and only get the job because of "affirmative action" laws, passing over CITIZENS who NEED the job.
    What jobs have you missed because of "them" this week.

    Then they send the money back to their homeland like Chile, Brazil, Mexico, etc. and not spend the money here keeping the money in our economy.
    Immigrants have always sent money to their family, and always will, how does that fact affect your lifestyle?

    (Last I heard, somewhere in the range of the Billions gets taken from our economy this way) Last I heard, most of them send it back to the USA to buy the Sham-wow to wipe the dust off of thier mules....

    I don't have a problem with those that come here and try to make a life for themselves, abide by our laws, and become a citizen like the lady you described in your story.

    Government needs to stop meddling in welfare period They need to stop providing it.

    The second part is a great point too. Immigration does have it's positives and negatives, but in this day and age, with all the problems this Country has, we have to start getting a rope around immigration as a whole.

    With terrorism, Veggie pickers are terrorist too? Really?
    an economic depression By who's defintion are we in a depression?
    and pending collapse, You're reaching again
    and being on the verge of civil unrest.... What does that have to do with this discussion?
    We've made it to easy for illegals to actually BE terrorists and could endanger this Country to a larger attack than 9/11. Foil...Hat...Too...Tight


    Remember, Mexico is still upset about losing the Southwestern States. Did you really just say that? Do the Ruskies want Palin's property back too?
     

    PatriotPride

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    Come here legally, get a job, pay taxes, learn English, teach your children to respect America, don't try to force us to become a little version of the country you left, don't look for a hand out from the government, enjoy life.

    Thats my stance on immigration.

    This! 110&! Rep'd. I agree wholeheartedly.:patriot:
     

    jedi

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    Remember, Mexico is still upset about losing the Southwestern States. With the violence erupting over AZ's immigration law, I wouldn't put it past them and the drug cartels to start some BS the first opportunity they get. Read that last sentence as economic collapse, National civil unrest/civil war, etc.

    The drug cartels are very happy with the current economy, politcial and policy situation in this country and see no need to help it. The demand for their product by the US (legal or illegal citizens) is higher than ever. They have no need or reason to "affect" their current biz model in any shape way or form. So I'm not sure I buy that.

    Yes a lot of the crime (kidnappings, grand theft auto, etc..) in AZ is occuring because of the "drug war" that the cartels have move spilled over to the US side but while the cartels are to blame for that we really do need to look in the mirror. We (US) are the consumers of the drugs. Our demand for the drug is the root issue. If we (US) did not demand the drugs the cartels would eventually die and the "crime" that comes with them since they would be out of biz.

    Would this solve the immigration issue nope but you can't blame the cartels "starting something".
     

    level.eleven

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    i just moved to indiana 4 years ago from phoenix. i didnt grow up riding a john deere and surrounded by other hoosiers. i spent alot of years in arizona and if you really think illegal immigrants are good hard working people that come here to better thier lives feel free to contact me and ill be more than happy to show you around phoenix. of course phoenix does top the list in kidnappings,home invasions,auto thefts and several other crime stats thanks to those illegal immigrants that are here to better thier lives so no promises on safety in phoenix. there are some good ones that come across but not many and anybody that thinks different then the closest you have to come to being around them is eating at taco bell.

    Interesting as I have been reading reports that convey the exact oppostite with regard to crime.

    The state has an estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants. But contrary to myth, they have not brought an epidemic of murder and mayhem with them. Surprise of surprises, the state has gotten safer.
    Over the last decade, the violent crime rate has dropped by 19 percent, while property crime is down by 20 percent. Crime has also declined in the rest of the country, but not as fast as in Arizona.

    Immigration and Crime | The Agitator

    El Paso is one of the safest big cities in the US if you are to believe reported crime data.

    The El Paso Miracle - Reason Magazine

    One trend that is interesting is that the more generations a family has been in the US, the more likely they are to be involved in crime. WE are teaching them.
     
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