Consumerism

[Randall Flagg]

Originally Posted by SemperFiUSMC

Not for nothin, but didn't you rat yourself out?

http://ingunowners.com/forums/genera...ml#post1105467

no she did not

http://ingunowners.com/forums/genera...ml#post1105394

but thats not the point, the point was him tring to get personal on how i talk with my wife.

[Benny]

Wow, this is some of the worst I've ever read on the internet.

I seriously can't believe I just read every post; I guess it was too entertaining to stop.

BTW, +1 to about 95% of the people in this thread.

[Fletch]

Originally Posted by Randall Flagg

Dave Ramsey, the over hyped financial planner? Are you seriously tring to compare psychology and the mind, to money saving tips on your food bill?

I see you haven't taken any Dave Ramsey courses, or even listened to his radio show. Otherwise you would know that this is not an accurate summation of his work.

Falling Off the Dave Ramsey Diet - Saving Advice
Here is someone that dont agree with dave

And neither has this person, else they would understand why he lays out the steps the way he does. He even admits, in class, that there are valid criticisms of his methodology, but until you understand why he does it the way he does, you can't make an intelligent argument against it, because it has a very specific purpose.

1. $1,000 to start an Emergency Fund

(this is a good point, except, well there aint many emergences that cost under 1k these days, maybe he should rework his figures)

Again, why does he put it this way, and what alternate suggestions does he offer?

2. Pay off all debt using the Debt Snowball

(good point every other F.P. has always made)

3. 3 to 6 months of expenses in savings

(again, this is common advice in his field, nothing new here)

And you will hear Dave say, almost every time he speaks on the radio or in class, that he didn't come up with this stuff, which is wisdom that is millennia old, all he's done is packaged it a little neater. Of course, since you're completely ignorant of his advice other than the bullet points you can cull from a single article, you wouldn't know this.

4. Invest 15% of household income into Roth IRAs and pre-tax retirement

( yeah, not good advice for these times, unless of course, your cool with the government saying your retirement now has to fund us bonds and failed banks)

His strategy is to protect your money as best you are able. When the government decides to steal from you, there's not a lot you can do about it.

5. College funding for children

(good advice if there were any jobs when your kids graduate, which there wont be, maybe they could move to india after college?)

There will be plenty of opportunities when kids graduate. Just because a given set of jobs disappears does not mean new jobs will not appear to replace them. How many cartwrights do you know? How many fiber optic technicians did they have in 1910? There's always some wag with an apocalyptic vision of the future who doesn't take into account the fact that people will continue to produce and trade even if the fiat economy crashes.

6. Pay off home early

( yes, please pay off your 250k home, so when the market drops another 20-30%, your home is worth 175k, i'm loving this guys "good times will always be here" advice)

He's never said that good times will always be here, and that's not the point of paying off your home. The point of getting this step completed is because with no debt, no house payment, and only food and utilities to pay for, you don't have a lot to worry about no matter what the economy does.

7. Build wealth and give. Invest in mutual funds and real estate

( did he say mutual funds and real estate?)

Yes, that's what he said. He also spends a great deal of time talking about HOW to buy... not just going out and shotgunning money at anything that looks like a mutual fund or piece of land. But of course, you've never listened to him, so you don't know. Wonderful argument out of ignorance you've got there.

For a man so wise to not see the housing bubble astounds me, well guess we cant all be make believe economists right?

More proof you have no idea what he teaches, since the housing bubble was a regular topic of conversation on his radio show for YEARS.

Seriously, are you ever going to make a credible statement here?

Thanks for explaining what i already knew, but the fact remains, you did not understand what i wrote, mises was writing about how a capitalism system would work in a perfect world, which he knew it was not when he was writing about it. He knew the dangers of fiat currency and the ability to expand credit, and he also knew that fiat currency has never stood the test of time.

I'm wondering if you know that know because I told you, or if you actually knew it beforehand, since you didn't seem to know Mises spent a great deal of time discussing labor and wages and the place of the common worker in the market economy.

Your kidding me right? You expect someone to believe that investing in stocks is akin to running your own business?

Funny that you can't seem to grasp that the very next item you quote from me regards owning without running, which is my entire point.

So whose fault is it for madoffs clients?

Whose fault is it for any criminal's victims?

It is thru massive deflating of our currency that you HAVE to invest in order to retire, hardly a choice if you ask me.

*sigh* The currency is being INflated, not DEflated. Inflation causes currency to lose its value relative to other goods. Deflation causes currency to gain in value relative to other goods. The Federal Reserve has been in the business of INflating the currency since its inception 97 years ago. You don't know this, yet you propose to school me on economics.

Part of the wonder? how about part of the stupidity of people? If i make a million dollars i should be able to retire

Says who?

, but thru the wonders of capitalism i cant, because inflation would have me in the poor house in 10-20 years

And now you can't make up your mind whether it's inflation or deflation.

And when you invest, you better hope the book keepers of whatever company you invest in did not do enron's books, or your wonder of capitalism just crapped on your doorstep.

Here's a vocabulary word for you: diversification. Look it up.

I'm hoping to god you did not pay for any economics classes bro.

It's pretty clear you didn't.

In case you did not know, the gap between rich and poor has been growing for 30 years, with most mid level job wages stagnate or going down since the 70's.

This comment actually deserves a response, but I've already run long and need to get moving. I'll come back to it later.

Dude you have got to be kidding me, your just joking right? that 35 bucks in FRN's was greater then all the riches of king tut eh?

And now the vaunted economics teacher doesn't understand the definition of wealth.

He must of been writing about a perfect world, because he should of understood that in a capitalism system based on fiat currency, that expanding of the credit could only lead to default(which was why he was for a gold standard in the first place, and also why he was for 100% reserves in banking reform).

He did understand these things, and you parroted this exact knowledge above, and yet somehow forgot it by the time you got down here. I'm beginning to think that whatever I say, you feel the need to say something opposite just so you can claim to be "right".

Again, he was not writing of a perfect world. He deconstructed the entirety of economic science by taking a praxeological look at the way people produce, trade, and consume when they are not hindered by outside forces such as government regulation. He then examined the effects of various kinds of government interference, and showed how each produced unintended consequences, what kind of unintended consequences, and how those consequences would lead to further disastrous intervention. It's not that hard to understand if you actually read his work, which it's becoming clear you haven't.

I used consumerism to show that in the easiest way possible(peer pressure) is something that even if fletch cant fathom, 99% of us on the board here can.

I can fathom it, I have fathomed it, long before you came on the scene. You are not revealing any great truths here. You're showing yourself to be someone who can watch a TV show, read an article or book, and then parrot what you've seen as though it's an amazing new idea, without any consideration for opposing points of view except to call them stupid and laugh.

You are not concerned with the mind or with debate, you're concerned with making yourself out to be the guru and the rest of us out to be your students. You're hoping to buffalo your way through any objections without seriously discussing the possibility that your little prepackaged worldview might just have some problems in it.

[mrjarrell]

The entirety of the Von Mises Institute is available via torrent now. Version 2.0 came online the other day and there's a link to version 1.0 at the site. EVERYTHING is available for anyone interested in economics. Get it, read it, share it. There's no excuse not to (unless you're on dial up).

Mises.org torrents HERE

[Fletch]

On the definition of wealth, as it concerns King Tut vs. a guy who works at Taco Bell in the early 90's:

Let's imagine two men:

Mark finds himself on a desert island, completely naked, with no shelter, no food, and no way to acquire any. The only thing in his possession is a giant stack of $100 bills. What he has is Money. What he'd like to buy with it is Wealth.

Conversely, Walter is on a neighboring island. He has clothes, a little house, a ready supply of food, fresh water, a source of electricity, and satellite TV, but not a penny to his name. Walter has Wealth, but he has no Money.

Put simply, Wealth is anything which makes a person's life better or easier in some way, according to his own subjective evaluations. Money is simply a medium of exchange, and is generally useless for anything "practical".

Back to King Tut vs. Taco Bell guy: How much of King Tut's gold would it have cost him to buy a flu shot? Or a computer? Or an air conditioner? Now, some of these things are fairly expensive to the Taco Bell guy, to be sure, but the fact is HE has access to these and innumerable other forms of wealth that King Tut could not purchase for all the gold in his kingdom. What's more, the lion's share of the truly remarkable advances in wealth have come in the last 150 years or so -- as a result of capitalism's unleashing of man's creative and productive potential. And this is how a minimum wage worker at a fast food restaurant is wealthier than the richest royalty of even a century or so preceding.

[Eddie]

Originally Posted by Fletch

On the definition of wealth, as it concerns King Tut vs. a guy who works at Taco Bell in the early 90's:

Let's imagine two men:

Mark finds himself on a desert island, completely naked, with no shelter, no food, and no way to acquire any. The only thing in his possession is a giant stack of $100 bills. What he has is Money. What he'd like to buy with it is Wealth.

Conversely, Walter is on a neighboring island. He has clothes, a little house, a ready supply of food, fresh water, a source of electricity, and satellite TV, but not a penny to his name. Walter has Wealth, but he has no Money.

Put simply, Wealth is anything which makes a person's life better or easier in some way, according to his own subjective evaluations. Money is simply a medium of exchange, and is generally useless for anything "practical".

Back to King Tut vs. Taco Bell guy: How much of King Tut's gold would it have cost him to buy a flu shot? Or a computer? Or an air conditioner? Now, some of these things are fairly expensive to the Taco Bell guy, to be sure, but the fact is HE has access to these and innumerable other forms of wealth that King Tut could not purchase for all the gold in his kingdom. What's more, the lion's share of the truly remarkable advances in wealth have come in the last 150 years or so -- as a result of capitalism's unleashing of man's creative and productive potential. And this is how a minimum wage worker at a fast food restaurant is wealthier than the richest royalty of even a century or so preceding.

Excellent points Fletch. I wish I had more rep to give you but it says I have to spread it around.

[Fletch]

Art Carden provides an excellent deconstruction of the "income gap":

What is Wealth Inequality? - Art Carden - Mises Daily

It's also discussed in historical context at Reason:

Nostalgianomics - Reason Magazine

I remember another article but am unable to find it at the moment, which highlights some other points. I'll post it if I find it.

[Hotdoger]

Dave Ramsey, the over hyped financial planner?

Dave's followers:

I'M DEBT FREE! Year to Date = $24,131,900

Randall's followers 0.


Lets see Dave or Randall ......

[hornadylnl]

Fletch,

Haggling doesn't work at all in retail stores. It must be a figment of my imagination that today I bought 4 appliances for $450 less than what the sign prices said.

[JetGirl]

Originally Posted by hornadylnl

4 appliances for $450 less than

Wow! Awesome deal.