Machine/ Build Own SCAR - Barriers?

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  • DeanSports

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 23, 2014
    48
    6
    Columbus
    I had a thought.

    There are tons of companies that make an AR15. Why does only 1 company make the SCAR?

    Is it a patent issue?

    I am wondering because I would like to build a SCAR. Have all the parts made, then see how much production of about 100 of each part would be and so on.

    $2,500 for a rifle... I am sure it can be made much cheaper.

    There is just 1 supplier and they control the market with that certain rifle, so I am just assuming there is a barrier somewhere. I just want to know what it is.

    Can some one help me out.
     

    42769vette

    Grandmaster
    Industry Partner
    Rating - 100%
    52   0   0
    Oct 6, 2008
    15,222
    113
    south of richmond in
    I had a thought.

    There are tons of companies that make an AR15. Why does only 1 company make the SCAR?

    Is it a patent issue?

    I am wondering because I would like to build a SCAR. Have all the parts made, then see how much production of about 100 of each part would be and so on.

    $2,500 for a rifle... I am sure it can be made much cheaper.

    There is just 1 supplier and they control the market with that certain rifle, so I am just assuming there is a barrier somewhere. I just want to know what it is.

    Can some one help me out.

    The SCAR is a FN design. Your not only paying for the parts, your also paying for a design.
     

    midget

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    6   0   0
    Apr 2, 2010
    1,619
    38
    Leo
    Unless you are planning on machining everything yourself, there is no way you will be able to pay shop rates to build one under 2500$. If you were planning on selling and marketing, you would definitely need to talk to a patent attorney to figure out how much differentiation is required in order to be legal.
     

    42769vette

    Grandmaster
    Industry Partner
    Rating - 100%
    52   0   0
    Oct 6, 2008
    15,222
    113
    south of richmond in
    What are the rules around making a silimar design?

    I have no clue on that, but I believe a company should be able to charge some money for their design hours. Mabye its a personal pet peeve, but it drives me crazy when a company comes up with something new, spends thousands of dollars on R&D only to have another company/person go behind them coping their work to try and undercut them (not specific to the firearms industry). I know its something I mise well just get usto, but it still bugs me.
     

    CountryBoy19

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 91.7%
    11   1   0
    Nov 10, 2008
    8,412
    63
    Bedford, IN
    As said, it's proprietary design from one of the best defensive small arms makers out there. They won't take kindly to somebody copying it. Your options are, redesign something like it, but different enough that they can't come after you, or copy it and worry about the legal battle later.

    Either way, engineering/design work isn't cheap, and legal battles aren't either. If you think this is even close to a winning proposition you need a reality check.

    Lets first start at getting parts made (assuming you're copying the design). Do you have drawings? You typically can't just send a part out to a shop and expect them to re-create the item without a drawing. So you need to do drawings first (lots of them). Do you have experience with CAD or will you be hiring that part out as well? What about materials? Do you know what the materials and heat-treat are on the parts? If not, you will need to reverse engineer the material specs, heat-treat, and any finish etc and include that on your drawings. Once you have drawings you would then send the drawing out for quotes if you can't make it yourself. If you think having a small run of 100 parts made will be cost effective then I encourage you to make a drawing, send it to some shops for quote and then sit in a chair when you get the quotes back.

    And that is all just for a straight-up copy, that will likely land you in a legal battle in short order. For a new, ground-up design you can multiple the above by at least 10... What about prototypes and testing? How many rounds do you have to fire before you're confident the gun will function well? That ammo costs money. What if a malfunction happens? Do you have high-speed cameras to capture the problem so prototype 2 can correct for that issue?

    And that's just the easy stuff....

    Disclaimer: I reverse engineer things for a living... it's not as easy as, "Hey, make me 100 parts exactly like this". There is a lot more to it than that.
     

    engineerpower

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Jun 1, 2008
    585
    18
    State of Boone
    For mass-producing, it's a non-starter. HK sued GSG for making a .22 that looked too much like an MP5, and made them make design changes to differentiate it. Crazy how a German company took another German company to court in America...

    Not sure how they did that, but all the Bobcat, Coharies, POF, etc get by.

    For personal, non-commercial use, go for it. I've been thinking about doing the same, main limiting factor is time to work on it, of course. I can't imagine too many scenarios where a home-built SCAR would run you afoul of patent/copyright law, and the wrath of FN.
     

    42769vette

    Grandmaster
    Industry Partner
    Rating - 100%
    52   0   0
    Oct 6, 2008
    15,222
    113
    south of richmond in
    For mass-producing, it's a non-starter. HK sued GSG for making a .22 that looked too much like an MP5, and made them make design changes to differentiate it. Crazy how a German company took another German company to court in America...

    Not sure how they did that, but all the Bobcat, Coharies, POF, etc get by.

    For personal, non-commercial use, go for it. I've been thinking about doing the same, main limiting factor is time to work on it, of course. I can't imagine too many scenarios where a home-built SCAR would run you afoul of patent/copyright law, and the wrath of FN.

    Home built for personal use would not get you in trouble, for just 1 you would have more time and money in it that buying one.
     

    CountryBoy19

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 91.7%
    11   1   0
    Nov 10, 2008
    8,412
    63
    Bedford, IN
    I can't imagine too many scenarios where a home-built SCAR would run you afoul of patent/copyright law, and the wrath of FN.
    If I'm not mistaken, a patent covers even "homebuilt for personal use" type of stuff. The catch is that the only recourse the patent-holder has is to sue you in civil court. Therefore the patent holder must determine if the reward is worth the cost. IE, monetary damages to you making a SCAR copy at home probably can't exceed the cost of a SCAR's full retail price in any normal circumstance. FN would have a LOT of money wrapped up in a legal battle and they would get a couple grand out of it.

    OTOH, where you "run afoul" is when you make them in quantity and sell them, leading to a LOT of reward for the costs involved.
     

    Streck-Fu

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    20   0   0
    Jul 2, 2010
    903
    28
    Noblesville
    The patent expired long ago for the AR-15. FN owns the SCAR and the patent is still valid. Much too new...

    And the SCAR is twice as expensive as it should be for what it does.
     

    Beowulf

    Master
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    66   0   0
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,880
    83
    Brownsburg
    The FN SCAR was developed in 2004 to meet an RFP request by USSOCOM (according to FN's website). So, assuming they patented the design right then, you've still got 9 years before you can build it without paying them a license. Of course, if they filed their patents after that, then that date moves further out.
     

    hrearden

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Feb 1, 2012
    682
    18
    Patent issues aside, I see where youre coming from on this. If you look at a SCAR and an AR, the SCAR is actually made with lessons from both the East and West. The tolerances, handling characteristics, ergonomics, and accuracy are all characteristic of Western republics. However, the rifle also uses trunnions, which as we know, is very characteristic of commie rifles. It allows the receiver to be made from cheaper material that doesnt have to hold up to pressures. Couple that with the molded plastic lower and furniture, and the cost of manufacture, minus R and D and patent issues, is less than if the rifle were a fully machined piece. I actually like the design because a variant of it could probably be made in a small scale shop easier than an AR variant could. I just refuse to spend that much money on it when there are FALs to be had.
     
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