Bad day at the range

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  • Rocket57

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Dec 19, 2010
    531
    18
    In denial
    Today I had my new Rock Island GI compact at the range for the second time. First time out it had 1 fte out of 50 rounds of Federal ball, leaving the brass halfway in the chamber. Today I had 5 fte out of 70 rounds with Win WB and PMC ball, all being the last round in both the RIA suplied ACT mag and a brand new Wilson Combat mag. All rounds were jammed into the top of the mag with the slide locked back normally.

    Image09172012163557.jpg


    As you can see, the brass is jammed into the top of the mag and the front end is damaged from either the barrel or the slide. (sorry for poor cell phone pic)
    The brass was even dinged up in some that ejected normally.

    P1010378.jpg


    P1010382.jpg


    I noticed when I first stripped and cleaned the pistol that the extractor is rotated a bit from where it probably should be.

    P1010385.jpg


    P1010384.jpg


    This is where the extractor ends up after the firing pin retainer is installed even if I straighten the extractor first. I also noticed brass marks in front of the ejection port on the slide. Brass was ejecting in every direction, some landing 6 feet away at 1:00!

    P1010386.jpg


    To me this looks like an extractor problem except for the fact that it was always the last round in the mag. I also can't figure out how it damages the front end of the case and still locks back the slide normally and why it would jam the empty brass back into the top of the mag. It even bent the top of the new Wilson mag.

    Any thoughts? I really wanted this to be my EDC after I get a few hundred rounds through it. My full size Rock Island has been faultless in 1000 rounds and I know compacts can be finicky but?!

    Update: 9-18
    I checked the extractor tension, seems OK. Definitely not too loose. Removed the extractor and checked for missalignment between the retainer slot and the end of the extractor. Again everything looks good. Then removed the retainer and extractor from my full size to do some comparison. While all the parts appear identical the full size extractor was too tight to fit in the compact. In the end I managed to re install the extractor and get it clocked correctly. The Retainer and extractor are VERY tight so the extractor rotating during use is probably not happening.
    I will try to get some range time in this weekend and see what happens.
     
    Last edited:

    PGRChaplain

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    Jan 13, 2011
    3,765
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    Waynedale (FT Wayne)
    The slide is locked open after the last round, so it's going all the way back. Looks like the rounds are bouncing around in the slide during ejection thus the brass marks on the slide. To me it seems the ejector is not holding the case till it throws it out the slide. The marks on the front of the cases looks like they are "Riding piggyback' on top of the next round going in the chamber. When it hits the barrel, it flips over and the primer end leaves the Brass marks on top of the slide. Call R/I or email them your pics for their input.
     

    Fixer

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    26   1   0
    Nov 22, 2009
    1,157
    63
    Fort Wayne Area
    I had similar FTE problems with a Para 3" 1911. I took the ejector out of the gun and cleaned it and the passage and put it back together. It ran fine after that. Might also need the ejector tuned to hold the cases a little tighter.
     

    churchmouse

    I still care....Really
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    187   0   0
    Dec 7, 2011
    191,809
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    Speedway area
    Great pics to go with the issue. You have to remember that is an entry level gun and I have seen some issues with these. A good friend sells a lot of these and more than a few will burp or fart on occasion. The extractor is definitely an issue and I would start there. It should not be able to rotate in this fashion.
     

    CCF

    Plinker
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    Jun 6, 2012
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    As said, it is an extractor issue. At the very least it will need a new firing pin stop fitted and the extractor tuned. As churchmouse said, the extractor should not turn in the tunnel when the firing pin stop is installed.

    Since the extractor is not tensioned properly (and or is rotating) it is allowing the last empty case to drop down into the mag and forcing it into the mag lips. The rounds sitting in the mag previous prevents those rounds from dropping and is why it is only happening on the last round.

    Hope this helps.....
     

    jgreiner

    Grandmaster
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    Jul 13, 2011
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    Lafayette, IN
    When i had last round issues....that then turned into mag release issues...turned out i had a worn Mag Release button on my MP. New button installed and hte gun was as good as new.
     

    TopDog

    Grandmaster
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    19   0   0
    Nov 23, 2008
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    This is a great thread. Good pics to go along with the problem and then excellent explanations of what is happening. INGO has some really experienced people willing to help out others.

    I have a lot of experience with full size 1911's, never owned or even shot a 1911 in any other platform than full size. I do know that some 1911's usually higher end models can be a bit finicky with regards to ammo and magazines.

    So that is my experience (limited to full size 1911's) here is my question:

    Are not the compact 1911's more prone to malfunctions that the full sized guns?
     

    CCF

    Plinker
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    Jun 6, 2012
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    Are not the compact 1911's more prone to malfunctions that the full sized guns?


    Shorter guns have a shorter stroke and therefore have to do everything in a shorter period of time (in most cases with a very fat round). Basically, as the gun gets shorter, the need for proper specs/numbers/fit increases. Factories only do this so well unfortunately. Also, the potential for the slide to outrun the magazine spring is increased. Compound that with the heavier springs that come stock is shorter guns and you have potential for even bigger problems. Heavier springs actually speed up the cycle time and with some shooters, the extra weight of the spring causes limp wristing/short strokes etc....

    Fact is, a heavier recoil spring does not help the slide slow much at all, and the opposite is true. If you want to give the gun more time you need to go lighter.

    Here is a video that (while talking about muzzle control for faster follow up shots) shows via high-speed video what lighter recoil springs actually do. They slow down the cycle time considerably. Going lighter will actually help many problems of shorter guns.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3UVLm2GajI
     

    SERparacord

    Grandmaster
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    3   0   0
    Apr 16, 2012
    5,509
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    Amish Mafia Bar
    Great pics to go with the issue. You have to remember that is an entry level gun and I have seen some issues with these. A good friend sells a lot of these and more than a few will burp or fart on occasion. The extractor is definitely an issue and I would start there. It should not be able to rotate in this fashion.

    +1 the firing pin stop should keep an extractor from clocking.
     

    RandallX

    Marksman
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    1   0   0
    Apr 15, 2012
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    hamilton county
    As said, it is an extractor issue. At the very least it will need a new firing pin stop fitted and the extractor tuned. As churchmouse said, the extractor should not turn in the tunnel when the firing pin stop is installed.

    Since the extractor is not tensioned properly (and or is rotating) it is allowing the last empty case to drop down into the mag and forcing it into the mag lips. The rounds sitting in the mag previous prevents those rounds from dropping and is why it is only happening on the last round.

    Hope this helps.....
    my thoughts as well.
     

    Fixer

    Expert
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    26   1   0
    Nov 22, 2009
    1,157
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    Fort Wayne Area
    As stated they do tend to need more fine tuning to get running correctly. Timing is a big factor with the shortend barrel. 3" guns are the extreme for a big 45 round. They can run fine once tuned up, correct extractor pressure and recoil spring weight for instance.

    Most short barreled 45 do not like short OAL, trunicated cone profile bullets either. I had a freind whose 3" Taurus Pro would not feed them reliably at all. My Colt 5" doesn't mind them as long as the OAL doesn't get too short.

    I agree with trying a little lighter recoil spring and clean the extractor passage and check the tension on it. I think most of your problems will be solved with that.
     

    Rocket57

    Sharpshooter
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    1   0   0
    Dec 19, 2010
    531
    18
    In denial
    Update 9-21

    Today I had my new Rock Island GI compact at the range for the second time. First time out it had 1 fte out of 50 rounds of Federal ball, leaving the brass halfway in the chamber. Today I had 5 fte out of 70 rounds with Win WB and PMC ball, all being the last round in both the RIA suplied ACT mag and a brand new Wilson Combat mag. All rounds were jammed into the top of the mag with the slide locked back normally.

    Image09172012163557.jpg


    As you can see, the brass is jammed into the top of the mag and the front end is damaged from either the barrel or the slide. (sorry for poor cell phone pic)
    The brass was even dinged up in some that ejected normally.

    P1010378.jpg


    P1010382.jpg


    I noticed when I first stripped and cleaned the pistol that the extractor is rotated a bit from where it probably should be.

    P1010385.jpg


    P1010384.jpg


    This is where the extractor ends up after the firing pin retainer is installed even if I straighten the extractor first. I also noticed brass marks in front of the ejection port on the slide. Brass was ejecting in every direction, some landing 6 feet away at 1:00!

    P1010386.jpg


    To me this looks like an extractor problem except for the fact that it was always the last round in the mag. I also can't figure out how it damages the front end of the case and still locks back the slide normally and why it would jam the empty brass back into the top of the mag. It even bent the top of the new Wilson mag.

    Any thoughts? I really wanted this to be my EDC after I get a few hundred rounds through it. My full size Rock Island has been faultless in 1000 rounds and I know compacts can be finicky but?!

    Update: 9-18
    I checked the extractor tension, seems OK. Definitely not too loose. Removed the extractor and checked for missalignment between the retainer slot and the end of the extractor. Again everything looks good. Then removed the retainer and extractor from my full size to do some comparison. While all the parts appear identical the full size extractor was too tight to fit in the compact. In the end I managed to re install the extractor and get it clocked correctly. The Retainer and extractor are VERY tight so the extractor rotating during use is probably not happening.
    I will try to get some range time in this weekend and see what happens.


    Update 9-21
    Left work early and stopped by MCFG to test out the compact. I had the extractor clocked at a little past 12:00.

    P1010387-e1_zps8eeb983f.jpg


    Loading the mags with just 2 rounds at a time I had none of the failures of my previous range trip. The brass is now ejecting between 2 and 4 o'clock so some is still getting bounced forward. I stopped after just 24 rounds when I saw that the extractor had rotated back to a little BEFORE 12:00. Looking at the ejected brass I noticed 'skid marks' on the primer from the firing pin and some marks on the rim from the extractor. Both signs of weak springs?

    P1010436_zps95573c7e.jpg


    P1010439_zps8ebc9fc7.jpg


    Looks like I will be contacting Armscor about these issues, especially the extractor rotating. I will see if their customer service is as good as I have heard.
     

    Rocket57

    Sharpshooter
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    1   0   0
    Dec 19, 2010
    531
    18
    In denial
    I now have 200 rounds through my Rock Island compact after receiving it back from Armscor. They did a great job tuning the extractor and ejector, replaced the recoil spring and polishing the feed ramp and barrel throat. I also sent them Trijicon night sights to install. The gun has since performed flawlessly and is as accurate as my XDM9 3.8.

    picture.php


    20 rounds at a measured 11 yards with an over the hill half blind guy at the controls. I am very happy with the gun and Armscor's customer service.

    See avatar for photo of the pistol in action.
     

    Hookeye

    Grandmaster
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    4   0   0
    Dec 19, 2011
    15,039
    77
    armpit of the midwest
    CCF

    I thought the stroke was the same for all 1911's, the shorter slides just have less mass and that was the reason for the heavier recoil spring (to keep the slide stop from getting battered).
     

    sbatten

    Plinker
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    0   0   0
    Jul 23, 2008
    98
    6
    Somewhere in Shelby Co.
    To the original poster,
    Did they say why they replaced the recoil spring? Did they change the size? Just curious if you had a defective spring or if they installed the wrong one at the factory. Glad to here things are worked out.
     

    60Driver

    Sharpshooter
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    4   0   0
    Sep 9, 2010
    392
    18
    Hamilton County
    CCF

    I thought the stroke was the same for all 1911's, the shorter slides just have less mass and that was the reason for the heavier recoil spring (to keep the slide stop from getting battered).

    "Short" 1911's in fact do have less slide travel. If you take a government model, a commander, and an officers, and rack the slide back you will see that each has a corespondindly shorter ammont of travel.

    This is why most smiths suggest that you ENSURE your magazine springs and Recoil spring is up to spec to increase the reliability of a "short" 1911. Mag springs get the next round up faster, and recoil spring slows down the slide travel to allow time for the other functions (And to keep the slide from battering as much do to the lighter weight as mentioned). Of course these precesses need to be in sync.

    This is also why "short" 1911's run heavier recoil springs. Additionally it is why shok-buffs are frowned upon by many in DUTY 1911's, they reduce the ammount of slide travel.

    For the OP: Skid on firing pin is indicative of it not retracting fast enough (bad spring) or dirty FP channel or perhaps bent pin?

    Extractor clocking as you are seeing can be fixed by FITTING a new FP stop as many of the other smart guys have suggested.

    Short 1911's are tougher to make run well, but they can be VERY reliable.
     
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