Military "Modular Handgun System" test competitor fires as fast as full auto AK4

[melensdad]

As some of you know the military is going to be starting testing for a new handgun. They want a modular design that will allow for parts interchanges so the gun can be altered to suit the mission. There are a couple various threads on the general discussion of the replacement of the Beretta M9 service pistol.

For clarity, one of the handguns that is being tested in the upcoming military's quest to find a "Modular Handgun System" that can allow the gun to be reconfigured was being fired in normal durability testing. 14,000 rounds of ammo were put through the gun in 1 week, the ammo was simple 'white box' ball ammo. During the course of fire one of the shooters fired off a CONTROLLED rapid fire burst of semi-auto fire that exceeded the rate of a full auto AK47. Controlled fire is the key here. The guy was NOT an expert competition shooter, he's an engineer working at the factory, yet he was able to remain on target.

The gun? A DETONICS MTX pistol, which is a high tech double stack 1911. And yes, some of you may recall that I do own production # 1 of this pistol, as well as one of the 2 prototype guns produced. So I am a huge "fanboy" of this gun.

One of my guns (production #1) is an unfired safe queen.

The other has been to many INGO shoots, has been fired by countless INGO members, the girls, the guys, the ladies and the kids who have shot the gun have stated the obvious. Its the most controllable, easiest to fire 1911 they've ever held. Its not a "tuned" gun. Its fire control parts are pure 1911. The slide is 100% compatible with most any other standard 1911 on the planet. But the frame is machined aluminum, double stack, and comes apart with the twist of a screw or two. So it can change to a single stack, it can change from high capacity government length to a compact "officer" length, etc etc etc

Here is the article from Bob Owens at BEARING ARMS: Modular Handgun System Competitor Fires As Fast As a Full-Auto AK! [VIDEO] - Bearing Arms

And a couple videos for comparison, first are controlled 9 rounds/second from the Detonics MTX 1911, the second is a random YouTube video of a guy rapid firing a Kimber.

DETONICS MTX video:
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xiT3ycp7HO4[/video]

Random KIMBER video:
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JcSSjwmIgh0[/video]

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Poor Barney...

Tagging for later.

 

[9mmfan]

Mmmh. I had thought Detonics was long dead. Glad to see I was wrong. Looks to be an intriguing system.

 

[melensdad]

Mmmh. I had thought Detonics was long dead. Glad to see I was wrong. Looks to be an intriguing system.

They changed hands several times, moved from Washington to Arizona, then to Georgia and now to Illinois over the past 30+ years.

The new ownership is focusing on advancing the ergonomics of the gun, while still sticking with a 1911 platform. Albeit a very advanced 1911 modular platform that allows for high capacity, combining it with a grip that is more along the lines of the Browning Hi-Power.

They also are developing a striker fired 1911 at the request of some law enforcement agencies which are forbidden, by politicians, from carrying a "cocked & locked" pistol.

 

[BE Mike]

That last "Random Kimber Video" showed poor safety practices. When he was through shooting he never visually checked the chamber, closed the slide and left it on the bench in a state that no one could see whether or not the pistol was unloaded. Why would emptying a magazine at one target in under a second be considered a tactical plus?

 

[cbhausen]

Cool pistol but would it not be too expensive? And could Detonics fulfill such a big contract?

 

[xdmdude]

I'd be a bit skeptical of this gun, but I am open minded and would love to try one out. If thy can make a successful polymer revolver why not a new age striker fired 1911. Or modular or whatever.

 

[melensdad]

That last "Random Kimber Video" showed poor safety practices. When he was through shooting he never visually checked the chamber, closed the slide and left it on the bench in a state that no one could see whether or not the pistol was unloaded. Why would emptying a magazine at one target in under a second be considered a tactical plus?

I believe you missed the point. The point was the ability to CONTROL the pistol, keeping all shots on target, under recoil. Even rapid recoil.

One of the biggest complaints with the 45acp round is the inability to control the gun in follow up shots. The patented captured multi-spring recoil assembly, combined with the change in the grip angle, combined with the change in the grip design works as a system to tame the recoil. And that goes to the point.

Cool pistol but would it not be too expensive? And could Detonics fulfill such a big contract?

Too expensive? As a low production piece yes. But with mass production comes economies of scale and price drops.

Could Detonics fill the contract? By itself, NO. But it could easily contact out it work to a larger arms maker, do a limited licensing of its design and collect a royalty (there were many producers of M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, etc)

 

[ModernGunner]

Cool pistol, but I'd guess Detonics 'quirky' history will take it out of serious consideration. 'Reliability' is more than just whether the firearm fires consistently for xx number of rounds. It's also whether the company is going to 'be there' for the next 5 - 10 decades. In that capacity, Detonics simply cannot compete with companies like Colt, Beretta, S&W, H&K, and Sig Sauer.

For a myriad of reasons, it's doubtful the military intends to go back to a 1911 design, and even more doubtful they'll go to a 'cocked & locked' carry mode. Also doubtful they'll go back to a 1911 design carried with an empty chamber, as this precludes (more) rapid response. Likewise, for several reasons, it's doubtful they'll go to a striker fire design. Which pretty much leaves DA/SA or DAO.

Control-ability is one of the reasons (primary?) the military went from .45 acp to 9mm, and this will likely still be a consideration. Need a handgun controlable by the 'lowest common denominator' and all that. With the advent of better defensive ammunition, the difference in stopping power has been all but eliminated. The military will most likely continue with ball ammunition (a 'necessary evil', presumably), but it's quite possible and logical the military will see a cartridge that's 'between' the .45 and 9, a 'balance' between stopping power and control.

Also, with more females (typically of smaller stature and hand size) in the military than when Colt or Beretta pistols were introduced, it makes sense that the military will be looking for a handgun with, likewise, a smaller grip size. This virtually rules out a double-stack .45 handgun, unless the magazine is moved out of the inside of the grip (ala Mauser).

Yes, I know, 1911 aficionados will tout the 1911 design as 'ideal', and that's fine... for 1911 aficionados. But there's a reason, and a good reason, why the outdated 1911 was retired in the first place. It's highly unlikely the military will go back to outdated technology when there's simply better options out there today.

It would make more sense to go to a handgun that fires a .223 round. Impractical of course. But it would be more logical in terms of ammo consistency & compatibility, than to go back to the .45 acp.
It'll be interesting to see what the military finally ends up with.

JMO.

 

[BE Mike]

I believe you missed the point. The point was the ability to CONTROL the pistol, keeping all shots on target, under recoil. Even rapid recoil.

One of the biggest complaints with the 45acp round is the inability to control the gun in follow up shots. The patented captured multi-spring recoil assembly, combined with the change in the grip angle, combined with the change in the grip design works as a system to tame the recoil. And that goes to the point.





Too expensive? As a low production piece yes. But with mass production comes economies of scale and price drops.

Could Detonics fill the contract? By itself, NO. But it could easily contact out it work to a larger arms maker, do a limited licensing of its design and collect a royalty (there were many producers of M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, etc)

I'd like to see it in the hands of a five foot nothing female Army private shooting standing/ unsupported. That might be a little more convincing. Magazine changes by the same lady might be interesting.

 

[melensdad]

Cool pistol, but I'd guess Detonics 'quirky' history will take it out of serious consideration. 'Reliability' is more than just whether the firearm fires consistently for xx number of rounds. It's also whether the company is going to 'be there' for the next 5 - 10 decades. In that capacity, Detonics simply cannot compete with companies like Colt, Beretta, S&W, H&K, and Sig Sauer.
. . .

Generally speaking I don't disagree with anything you wrote.

Detonics, as a tiny low-production custom quality gun company, is a very longshot in the options. But the military's 3 gun MOTO team uses the Detonics as their competition pistol. So its not out of the question that the gun won't give all others a serious run for their money.

I'd like to see it in the hands of a five foot nothing female Army private shooting standing/ unsupported. That might be a little more convincing. Magazine changes by the same lady might be interesting.

Well we had several kids and ladies of various sizes from the NWI INGO Group shoot my pistol at meet ups at Winamac as well as at Blythe's Indoor Range and they all had similar reactions.

I understand your skepticisms. No 45 will recoil like a 22lr. But this 45 has a very controllable recoil because of the change of the grip angle, the grip shape, and the captured multi-spring assembly.

 

[PRasko]

Erm....Just saying that the 1911 has a cyclical rate of 650 rpm...


As for how fast they can fire in semi auto mode...

27 rounds in 3.7 seconds with a 1911 pistol with World Record shooter, Jerry Miculek - YouTube

Much faster then the detonix, or the crappy kimber video.

For ****s and giggles...

Full auto 1911

Non Standard M1911A1 -A3? - YouTube

 

[melensdad]

Erm....Just saying that the 1911 has a cyclical rate of 650 rpm...


As for how fast they can fire in semi auto mode...

27 rounds in 3.7 seconds with a 1911 pistol with World Record shooter, Jerry Miculek - YouTube

Much faster then the detonix, or the crappy kimber video.

For ****s and giggles...

Full auto 1911

Non Standard M1911A1 -A3? - YouTube

Again, another person who misses the point. The fire rate of the Detonics was in the hands of a normal human, not a world class competitor, in fact not even in the hands of a competitor at all. And the shots were all on target because the shooting was controlled.

 

[PRasko]

Again, another person who misses the point. The fire rate of the Detonics was in the hands of a normal human, not a world class competitor, in fact not even in the hands of a competitor at all. And the shots were all on target because the shooting was controlled.

I understand what you're saying, but you have two videos of two different people shooting two different guns.

Really an apples to oranges comparison.

I posted the video of miculek to let you know what a 1911 was capable of, because the kimber video is NOT an accurate representation of how fast a 1911 can shoot accurately.

 

[Rob377]

Average split was .24 seconds. Full auto AK is much faster.

Had a few .14s in there, but just about any gun can do that, including a stock glock. And a full auto AK is still faster.

 

[BE Mike]

Generally speaking I don't disagree with anything you wrote.

Detonics, as a tiny low-production custom quality gun company, is a very longshot in the options. But the military's 3 gun MOTO team uses the Detonics as their competition pistol. So its not out of the question that the gun won't give all others a serious run for their money.





Well we had several kids and ladies of various sizes from the NWI INGO Group shoot my pistol at meet ups at Winamac as well as at Blythe's Indoor Range and they all had similar reactions.

I understand your skepticisms. No 45 will recoil like a 22lr. But this 45 has a very controllable recoil because of the change of the grip angle, the grip shape, and the captured multi-spring assembly.

I'm glad that you are so big on your pistol. I wonder if the Army will change calibers. Really there isn't a nickels worth of difference in the stopping power of most FMJ rounds regardless of caliber. I would guess that the guidelines for selecting a new service pistol will be a wonderment to us all.

 

[Redhorse]

Personally, this seems like an upgrade to me. It has promising potential, that's for sure.

 

[IndyGlockMan]

I guess my question is why would they go back to the 45acp?
There was a reason they went to 9mm, right?
Is the military not happy with the Beretta or not happy with the 9mm, or both?
Seems to me they would switch guns, but not calibers.

 

[Tactical Flannel]

Again, another person who misses the point. The fire rate of the Detonics was in the hands of a normal human, not a world class competitor, in fact not even in the hands of a competitor at all. And the shots were all on target because the shooting was controlled.

Seems like an interesting firearm, granted.
But I'm a bit confused. You state the high rate of fire is controlled and on target. I guess my question is what was the target?
In the video you have linked, I see a lot of dirt flying from different locations in front of the backstop. Am I misunderstanding your target or just not accounting for something?

Stay safe

 

[rvb]

rapid fire burst of semi-auto fire that exceeded the rate of a full auto AK47.
....
And a couple videos for comparison, first are controlled 9 rounds/second]

FA AK approx .10s splits.
1s/9 = 0.11s splits

Average split was .24 seconds. Full auto AK is much faster.

Had a few .14s in there, but just about any gun can do that, including a stock glock. And a full auto AK is still faster.

My "ear timer" said those were ~.20s splits, give or take, not .11s. Lowest I've seen on the timer w/ my glock was 0.09s (just a couple times, not sustained). 0.12-13s splits sustained are not hard.

So shooting a "burst" at the rate of an AK47 isn't impossible. none of that is really unique to any pistol.

I believe you missed the point. The point was the ability to CONTROL the pistol, keeping all shots on target, under recoil. Even rapid recoil.

if "on target" = 60 sq ft area, then yea....
he wasn't even always hitting the backstop in the vid...

not trying to bash the gun (or you or the shooter), but that's not the best promotional vid....

ps. I'm not a "pro" shooter either, also just an engineer.......

-rvb