Gabe Suarez: The Myth Of Grip

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  • glockednlocked

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    Or will the cool kids just be the cool old codgers with that old tyme 1986 tech glock still killin like old Gaston intended.
     

    chipsher

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    I don't think there's anything in this article i agree with. Who believes my M&P Pro has a better trigger than a my 1911s or a Witness Match.
     

    in625shooter

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    As a trainer the article is spot on. While we all have our own likes and dislikes when you have to carry a company gun. If it's not the best for you, you have to adjust your techniques because they don't care you would rather have that SIG (insert your flavor here_________) Some folks inability to learn some basic fundamentals goes hand in hand with the marketing of some manufactures with some going through 4,5 or 10 different models (and a box full of different holsters for each gun).
     

    Goodcat

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    I don't think there's anything in this article i agree with. Who believes my M&P Pro has a better trigger than a my 1911s or a Witness Match.

    It is spot on. Does an m&p9 or g19 trigger touch that of a highly customized 1911? Of course not. His point is, train with anything that works and it'll work as hard as you trained. 10,000 hours to master anything, it's trigger time using any tools that are available.
     

    88GT

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    As a trainer the article is spot on. While we all have our own likes and dislikes when you have to carry a company gun. If it's not the best for you, you have to adjust your techniques because they don't care you would rather have that SIG (insert your flavor here_________) Some folks inability to learn some basic fundamentals goes hand in hand with the marketing of some manufactures with some going through 4,5 or 10 different models (and a box full of different holsters for each gun).
    But it's spot on in a very limited scope.

    Would you recommend to someone who had a choice in which firearm to carry to go with the one that fit better naturally and was put on point with the natural aim 9 times out of 10 or the one for which the user has to re-learn and re-train his natural tendencies just to put the rounds on paper?
     

    masterdekoy

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    I agree with 88gt on this one. If you have the ability and drive to retrain every time you want to switch firearms, more power to you. There is something to be said for ease of transition between platforms.

    Was an interesting read though, and he makes valid points.
     

    tetsujin79

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    I'm not sure I buy "natural aim" from a handgun grip. Yeah, you pick one up and it feels like it "fits", but what does that mean for accuracy? Does it really help, or is it one less thing that you have to think about when training? Yeah, that'll help, but wouldn't more training do the same? Outside of small hands that can't get proper purchase on the grip, I think it's more feel and less real.


    I like how 1911s feel in my hand more then XDs feel, which feel better then Glocks. However, I've shot Glocks more and am more accurate with Glocks. Do I wish a Glock felt like an ergonomic wet dream? Sure. But the proof is in the pudding, er, target. :twocents:
     

    in625shooter

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    But it's spot on in a very limited scope.

    Would you recommend to someone who had a choice in which firearm to carry to go with the one that fit better naturally and was put on point with the natural aim 9 times out of 10 or the one for which the user has to re-learn and re-train his natural tendencies just to put the rounds on paper?

    The firearm is just the tool. Do some fit hands a little better? sure. Are some folks prejudiced against a certain model/make/caliber for no reason? sure. If someone (aka Joe Civilian) try's something and when they shoot a box of rounds through it decide they don't like it they can dump it and go on their quest which we have probably all seen. Several threads have been started about Ghost triggers in Glocks, Apex in M&P's etc etc etc to the point it seems some folks will not take the time to make a current model that was more new shooter friendly to use or master , they want the gun to do it all.

    Anyone could make any firearm work it's all in the powers of the mind and prior programming. Example, a lot of folks are against revolvers because of either round count and DA trigger pull however several of us mid to upper 40 year olds can make them sing and did incredible work with them and still do. It was learning that system and HOW to make it work. For someone that has a choice and starting out I would recommend 2 things. 1 they get some qualified instruction because as far as bringing it up to a wrong point of aim it could be they are doing it wrong not the gun. 2nd They need to try several different styles but they get some unbiased instruction on what the real pros and cons are of each one and how to make it run without performing major surgery on internal parts etc, Rebuilding the insides for competition is one thing but if you need to do that for a carry piece perhaps more practice should be looked at, If they are that critical of a 5 1/2 pound Glock trigger that just can't work for them and need the 3 1/2 or Ghost they sure wouldn't have lasted back in the revolver/S&W459 and Browning HI Power or 1911 days when those were the only choices.

    Also that's why I don't personally like the hype of laser sights. While they have their role and can be a good supplement my issue is they teach/encourage getting away from shooting fundamentals. Yes they can be an effective option in a certain scenario but folks that use them exclusively are getting into bad shooting habits.
     

    iChokePeople

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    You can learn to shoot just about anything, if you put in the time, but it's not difficult to prove the bio-mechanical advantages (or disadvantages) of different wrist and hand positions and alignments (pronation, supination, radial/ulnar deviation, alignment or non-alignment of the metacarpals and phalanges based on those changes, etc.) Unless the suarez curriculum has changed, they promote the use of the "half-homie" tilt of the handgun when firing one-handed... because they believe it's more natural and comfortable and will produce better results. Yes, everyone's different, YMMV, etc, but IMHO, unless you're bench resting it, your body gets a vote in whether the round will actually strike the target and how quickly you can put subsequent rounds on the target.
     

    in625shooter

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    You can learn to shoot just about anything, if you put in the time, but it's not difficult to prove the bio-mechanical advantages (or disadvantages) of different wrist and hand positions and alignments (pronation, supination, radial/ulnar deviation, alignment or non-alignment of the metacarpals and phalanges based on those changes, etc.) Unless the suarez curriculum has changed, they promote the use of the "half-homie" tilt of the handgun when firing one-handed... because they believe it's more natural and comfortable and will produce better results. Yes, everyone's different, YMMV, etc, but IMHO, unless you're bench resting it, your body gets a vote in whether the round will actually strike the target and how quickly you can put subsequent rounds on the target.

    Several agencies teach that on weak hand only shooting that a "slight" cant (35ish degrees) makes engagement of the trigger a little easier especially with the use of a traditional DAO type firearm that has a hammer (Beretta, SIG S&W 3rd gen etc). This is helpful to those with weak non dominate hands or for those with prior injuries (carpal tunnel) as it takes some tension off your tendons within your wrist area. Some folks have issues and some that have the hand strength don't. The only time a full can't (45 degree homeboy style) is taught is for a shield man but then that is a specialty item and the shield guy is dependent on his number 2 man so for the shield guy to engage is a last ditch effort. Again that is just a few agencies and for only a very limited type of shooting.

    I have personally seen that method help some shooters that have struggled with out using it. Again if you use a Glock or M&P probably not an issue but if you use a DA revolver or a DAO auto with a hammer it's a technique that works.
     

    blueboxer

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    It was the method of carry and use of two "full size" guns that brought out the tactikoolaid comment. Not merely carrying a back up gun like you said. I mean they even have a picture where he has both guns out and is shooting away. Come on man, that didn't make you roll your eyes even a little? You might be a little too attached to that site if it didn't.
     

    loudpedal

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    Maybe I am about to show off my stupid. but I don't know the definition of "internal affairs trigger." :n00b:

    I am not trying to be a smart%#@ I really just don't know.
     

    iChokePeople

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    Maybe I am about to show off my stupid. but I don't know the definition of "internal affairs trigger." :n00b:

    I am not trying to be a smart%#@ I really just don't know.

    A very heavy trigger, aka New York trigger, etc.

    On the "half-homie", I wasn't disputing its validity -- I mentioned it specifically because I've been in classes where it was advocated and I think it IS more comfy. My issue is that, IMHO, they seem to be arguing on both sides of the "ergonomics" aisle.
     

    Denny347

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    This is more true for those of us that have to carry XYZ handgun on/off duty. I remember back in 1997 when I was in the Academy, I was issued a 1st generation S&W Sigma .40. Man I hated that gun. There trigger was horrible and the grip was all wrong for me. But since I had no choice, I got good with it anyway, qualified expert at the range with an almost perfect score. Later I was able to buy my own handgun to carry on duty but for a long time I had to use that boat anchor of a handgun. Some people cannot get the handgun that fits them best for financial reasons. They buy the best gun they can afford and should not let that gun's shortcomings keep them from being proficient with it.
     
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