Issues with dry-firing Ciener 1911 conversion?

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  • Drail

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    Oct 13, 2008
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    It will not hurt it as much as you might think but it is a good idea to learn to count your rounds fired so that you know when the last round has chambered and the magazine is empty. The firing pin has a stop machined in it to limit firing pin travel - it can just "kiss" the chamber wall but not really dent it. But shooting the gun dry is a very bad habit with any semi auto pistol. Count'em off. I have been shooting a Ciener 1911 since 1993 and it still runs like a top. I would advise you to get some replacement springs for the magazines while you still can. They will weaken - as soon as you get a last round feed problem - they're toast. I always keep some empty .22 cases and chamber one so I can dry fire it at home. How does your Ciener run?
     
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    NightmareOne

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    Oct 15, 2014
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    Drail, I actually just stumbled onto a post in another forum talking about the slot in the firing pin. This was on a Browning Hi Power kit, but I imagined that they would be of similar design. I normally would work to count the rounds down, but I do a lot of tactical/high stress training and in those situation I like to let myself be "surprised" and deal with the malfunction/empty mags accordingly. That's great to hear that your kit is still goin strong. I have heard mostly good things from owners about the kits themselves. Not such great things about the man/company, but the kits are among the best in manufacture/function once properly broke in. And I have found a way to contact people at JAC Inc as well; all you have to do is call them and talk to the machine until someone, usually the receptionist will pick up. :cool: I actually haven't gotten one yet... just passing the research phase and working up to the purchase of the kit. When I do get one, I plan to only run eight rounds in the magazines to simulate my .45s capacity. That should help to keep the springs from tiring-out. I also might try some GSG magazines in it. They would hold the action open on empty. I have heard that if you use a stiff enough recoil spring it keeps the slide from peening on the stop. Otherwise, I might see about getting the insert that Advantage Arms uses on their kits. Now that I'm thinking about it, I would think there should be a way to temper the springs to make sure they won't get tired with use. Does your kit run dry since break-in or does it still require substantial lube?
    Col
     

    NightmareOne

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    Oh, also... How durable are the magazines themselves? If dropped free onto the ground, do they/do you feel they would dent or be damaged in anyway? I don't intend to baby this kit as it will be a tool to train my subconscious and muscles. And lastly, do you have the platinum or the service model? How are the sights? Do they correspond with POI or did they require substantial adjustment? Does POI change when the kit is uninstalled and then re-installed? Dang, another question popped into my head. When you first installed the unit, how tight was the fit? I am a bit worried about this, as I tried a Kimber kit on my frame a few weeks ago.... and it flat would not go on. I know I could have worked on the slide to fit it to the frame rails, but I prefer not to just to get the kit on. I would like it to have a snug fit and use oil and hand-cycling to work them into each other. Thanks for all your time and sharing your experience with the "Ciener."
    Col
     

    Drail

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    I have the standard model. I used to smith on 1911s a lot so I had a lot of leftover sights and various parts from customer's guns who didn't want to keep them (thank you very much). I installed a rear sight that was from Maryland Gun Works and with a bit of file work was able to make it line up with the Ciener front sight which is actually milled as part of the slide (a smith can install a dovetailed front sight if you want one). My Ciener got "dedicated" to an old Springfield frame that had a totaled out slide. The Ciener slide should go on to most 1911 frames but as always there will be exceptions. The frame I used had already had the rails peened down and the original slide had been "squeezed". A little file work on the frame rails and the Ciener slid right on nicely. Don't worry about a little slop in the slide to frame fit - it really doesn't matter on the Ciener set up because the barrel does not tilt and move up and down in the slide - just straight blowback. As long as the barrel fits the slide snugly and the sights are rigidly attached to the slide - shot to shot consistency is fine. The slide may rattle on the frame rails but if the barrel's muzzle locks up in the slide with no play every time it goes into battery the gun will be accurate. Here's the part that you may laugh at - after 15 years or so of hard use the aluminum slide wore so much at the muzzle that the barrel got very loose in front. Accuracy was gone. So I drilled and tapped two small holes through the slide at 45 degrees to the bore under the muzzle and threaded in two set screws with spring loaded captured ball plungers and tweaked them down and Loc tited them and the accuracy came back - maybe better than new. The barrel locks up with no play in battery and the best part is - when it wears again I only have to tweak the set screws a tiny bit to bring it back. I have several very accurate Ruger MK IIs and the Ciener will now keep up with them pretty well. I plan on shooting that Ciener until they have to put me down. It was well worth the original purchase price of $199. I have spent far more than that on ammo and enjoyed myself greatly. My Ciener now has a 1.5 lb. trigger and runs all day on cheap Federal rimfire ammo. On the magazine question - I was amazed the first time I saw the Ciener magazines. They are an amazing piece of machining. I cannot bear the thought of dropping them on any hard surface because they are soft aluminum and will be seriously damaged if you do it repeatedly (like more than once). I would not recommend them for tactical drills where they will hitting the deck. Maybe on grass but definitely not on gravel or concrete. You'll have to do the stupid IDPA retained reload thing. (I am not a fan of IDPA) Yes, you will have to "baby" those magazines. I was lucky to work on a range for years with grass everywhere - we used tarps staked down to catch brass and we all wore cleated basball shoes so magazines didn't get trashed unless someone stepped on one. Also the magazines aren't cheap either. 50 bucks last time I checked. But they work very well. Now if I could only find some rimfire ammo somewhere. It's been two years since I have seen ANY. Good luck with yours. Keep shooting til the brass burns your buttcheeks. Or as Jerry Miculek likes to tell students - be the first one at the range in the morning and the last one to leave. Man, I did that for years and he is right - you'll get pretty good after doing that for awhile.
     
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    NightmareOne

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    Oct 15, 2014
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    That's the one I am pretty sure I'm going to go with. It will match my 1911 A1 and provide a great training double. That is really awesome that you were able to put all that together an make a working gun out of what some would consider a junked frame. And even cooler is how you fixed your conversion after it "wore out." Weapons really intrigue me and I really admire those who can work on them and keep them running when others would just count them out. I really appreciate the explanation of how everything works together with the ciener... it will come in handy to understand its functioning in the future I'm sure. That really says a lot for the kit that you intend to keep it until you can't shoot no more; I'm quite happy to hear that. As for the magazines... kind of sucks that they are going to be so delicate. But, such is life; I guess I'll just have to get a pouch to drop them in. Maybe if I get the GSG mags to work well, and figure out a solution to the probable peening of the slide notch, then I won't have to worry about retaining them as they are steel construction I believe.
    Man, do I appreciate the idea of tarps to catch the brass. I always hate having to try and find my brass when I'm done shooting. Can't believe I never thought of it myself... just so simple and practical. I know what you mean with the 22 ammo... is quite aggravating not being able to get a brick whenever you need one, like you used to be able to. If you live near a Gander Mountain, I can say from experience that they put out their 22 ammo right at open. If you are there 45 minutes to an hour early, you should have your pick of what they are offering. I really do with I could practice until the brass burnt my cheeks... but, sadly, I'm not that rich; hence the decision to invest in trainers. lol Maybe one day, we'll be able to let 'er rip like we used to back in the late 90s and early 2000s. :ar15: Thanks a lot for the wealth of knowledge and experience!
    Col
     

    NightmareOne

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    Drail, What do you think of machining a barrel bushing into the slide? If it was done from new, it shouldn't be too hard to keep it concentric. Then it would be steel on steel and should help protect the slide. The only issue I foresee is the steel bushing might add too much weight... And of course there is the issue of spending too much on a budget project. So what do you think? Practical or too much work and money?
    Col
     

    Drail

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    I think the best method would be to use a threaded bushing that would be replaceable. It might add a very small amount of mass but I think the slide would still cycle fine with full power rimfire loads. Maybe not with the light "target" stuff. But it might increase the cost of the unit to the point where Ciener would be competing with the higher priced makes out there. If I were still smithing I would probably advertise the plunger mod just as a way to save a shot out Cierner slide. It really does return the accuracy to as new.
     

    NightmareOne

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    I think the best method would be to use a threaded bushing that would be replaceable. It might add a very small amount of mass but I think the slide would still cycle fine with full power rimfire loads. Maybe not with the light "target" stuff. But it might increase the cost of the unit to the point where Ciener would be competing with the higher priced makes out there. If I were still smithing I would probably advertise the plunger mod just as a way to save a shot out Cierner slide. It really does return the accuracy to as new.
    That makes sense... I kind of figured that it would be less than cost effective. I'm guessing for most average shooters, the slide will easily out last their shooting habits anyway. So I think I will just focus on keeping it simple... buy a kit an shoot. That is if I can even find the time to shoot... since moving into town and having the new baby, it has gotten a lot harder to find time to practice. Especially compared to when living on the farm, where the "range" was literally just out the back door. :rockwoot:
    Col
     

    Drail

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    Yup, I probably ran through a brick of rimfire every Saturday, sometimes 2 bricks a week (and anywhere from 500 to 1000 rounds of .45 ACP per week) but that was back when I could walk into Walmart any time and get bricks for $8.99. I knew the aluminum slide was going to wear, I just didn't think it would wear that fast. I used to have to drive for 20 minutes to get to the range but now I have moved onto the old family farm and as you said, just step out the door. But now for the last two years Walmart never has any ammo. It's always something ain't it? I just noticed you are in North Dakota - you know all about "winter" up there don't you?
     

    NightmareOne

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    but that was back when I could walk into Walmart any time and get bricks for $8.99.
    Man do I miss those days... even $15 would be awesome; well, I guess $25 would be great too if you could just go buy it whenever like we used to.

    But now for the last two years Walmart never has any ammo. It's always something ain't it?
    It sure is in this ol' world... Gander Mountain has been my best bet lately; if you are there 30-45 minutes before they open, then you stand a chance at the 40-50 bricks they put out each day. My wife's cousin has an on-line gun store... seems to me that his prices on Federal 525 weren't far off from what we paid at Gander last time... was $25, which I was more that tickled to pay. I'll get the name of their store and pass it on to you, once I get home from my night run.

    I just noticed you are in North Dakota - you know all about "winter" up there don't you?
    Yes Sir, I have seen days where the electronic in your truck just flat wouldn't work.... and the only way to keep it running was with your foot on the gas and battery charger on the jump mode for a good 15 minutes. Knew I was wrecking the battery, but just didn't much care at that point... all I wanted to do was get home to my family and out of that dang cold. :wow: That was cold, like 60something/70 below with the wind. I used to shoot a lot back in high school; all winter long, no matter the weather... one to two bricks a week; our drive-way used to be paved in .22 brass; Dad hated that so. But, that was back when times were good, ammo was plentiful and cheap, and time wasn't so fleeting.
    On a side note, I do believe we are getting things figured out up here; the family has been doing a lot of serious talking about moving southward. Focus seems to be on Silver City NM... it's a couple years out yet, but with winter coming on, I'm getting awful antsy. :D
    Col
     

    Drail

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    I remember one winter in Illinois when the static air temp. (not the windchill) was over 30 degrees below zero. Car batteries would expand and burst at that temp. I had to pull the battery out of my truck every night and bring it in the kitchen to keep it warm. But every morning I would put it back in and my truck would start right up and I would go off to work. The sounds made by the suspension were unbelievable. You would not believe how fast I could remove and install that battery in that frigid air. Personally I LOVE the idea of having my driveway paved with brass....... I was stationed in N.M. for a year while in the Air Farce and I loved it. Not at first - but it kind of grows on you. Really good food down there.
     
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