CZ 75 Should be new military pistol.

[MusicMatt]

With all this fuss about the military wanting a new pistol...and the crapload of tax dollars they've wasted so far in botched trials:

A US made CZ 75 clone seems like it would fit all of their needs for ergonomics, safety, reliability, accuracy, and budget.

Maybe even better if they decided to do a polymer framed model like the P07.

 

[kawtech87]

With all this fuss about the military wanting a new pistol

They don't want a new pistol they want to **** and moan about getting a new pistol so they can settle for the same thing they have always had. Just see the read the thread on the new Berretta M9A3.

A US made CZ 75 clone seems like it would fit all of their needs for ergonomics, safety, reliability, accuracy, and budget.

CZ will most likely never move production out of the Czech Republic to get a US military contract. Mostly because that would lose them the ones they already have which are several. CZ does NOT need the US market like HK does for instance. Also having the pistol made to the same quality specs out of the same materials in the US would drive costs way above budget.
Maybe even better if they decided to do a polymer framed model like the P07.
I've read that Tanfoglio makes CZ's poly frames. I doubt a US based company could make them to the same specs for the same price let alone less.

Responses in red.

As much as I love the CZ platform they would not bend to our standards to get the contract. CZ does not need the US market and from what I have read are not particularly fond of the business practices of the US government.

 

[MusicMatt]

My thought would be we circumvent CZ and make a clone like several others companies have.
Somehow FN, Glock, Ruger, S&W, etc. are able to produce quality firearms at the same price or better than we what are paying Beretta.
I know it will never happen, but one can dream...

 

[kawtech87]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/handguns/368988-jericho-returns.html

This would be a cool option. Supports an important ally (Israel not that Italy isn't an important ally but, Israel needs it more) and is a quality CZ clone. It would be more likely to convince IWI to bring production stateside than CZ.

 

[MusicMatt]

It would be great to actually support Israel for the first time since you know who took office.
The Jericho is a beefy beast though.

 

[kawtech87]

.The Jericho is a beefy beast though.

Yeah but if we are talking a military oriented pistol it would need to be full sized with a rail to meet Mil standard so we are talking SP-01/P-09 territory. Neither of those are skinny ladies.

 

[melensdad]

Realize that the Jericho, also the Armalite varient it spawned, and the Tanfoglio from which both the Jericho and Armalite were derived, are not true clones. All have a different fire control system which were designed by Tanfoglio and are NOT a copy of the CZ design, all use Tanfoglio magazines which don't work with CZ pistols, etc.

The guns look very similar to a CZ on the OUTSIDE and clearly were inspiried by CZ, but they are not actually clones since they don't have interchangeable parts.

When you think of clone guns you think of 1911 pistols which have interchangeable parts, or you think of AR15 rifles, which have interchangeable parts. There are no true CZ clones but there are CZ look-a-likes that are mechanically different.

 

[kawtech87]

Realize that the Jericho, also the Armalite varient it spawned, and the Tanfoglio from which both the Jericho and Armalite were derived, are not true clones. All have a different fire control system which were designed by Tanfoglio and are NOT a copy of the CZ design, all use Tanfoglio magazines which don't work with CZ pistols, etc.

The guns look very similar to a CZ on the OUTSIDE and clearly were inspiried by CZ, but they are not actually clones since they don't have interchangeable parts.

When you think of clone guns you think of 1911 pistols which have interchangeable parts, or you think of AR15 rifles, which have interchangeable parts. There are no true CZ clones but there are CZ look-a-likes that are mechanically different.

All very true. But this thread was about the chances of a CZ75 or an American made CZ inspired copy being considered for Army pistol trials.

Of those currently in existence I think the closest thing that has a chance is the IWI Jericho. Since it's already battle proven by Israeli police and other military groups and Israel is an ally it should be a shoe in.

 

[RND]

There should be multiple standard issue pistols, dependent on several factors.

 

[melensdad]

All very true. But this thread was about the chances of a CZ75 or an American made CZ inspired copy being considered for Army pistol trials.

Of those currently in existence I think the closest thing that has a chance is the IWI Jericho. Since it's already battle proven by Israeli police and other military groups and Israel is an ally it should be a shoe in.

I realize what the thread is about but people started talking about the other pistols as if they were CZ equivalents, which they are not.

NATO has already approved the CZ P01, why not just use that one for our military?

 

[kawtech87]

I realize what the thread is about but people started talking about the other pistols as if they were CZ equivalents, which they are not.

NATO has already approved the CZ P01, why not just use that one for our military?

That would be awesome I love my P01. But US military requires the pistol to be manufactured in country. CZ would not likely move production out of the Czech Republic to win a military contract it doesn't need or want. If any company could be convinced to move production state side I think IWI would be more likely but still very doubtful.

 

[kawtech87]

Oh and the newer models of the P01 have an updated slide stop spring and as a result is no longer wear the NSN.

 

[88E30M50]

Realize that the Jericho, also the Armalite varient it spawned, and the Tanfoglio from which both the Jericho and Armalite were derived, are not true clones. All have a different fire control system which were designed by Tanfoglio and are NOT a copy of the CZ design, all use Tanfoglio magazines which don't work with CZ pistols, etc.

The guns look very similar to a CZ on the OUTSIDE and clearly were inspiried by CZ, but they are not actually clones since they don't have interchangeable parts.

When you think of clone guns you think of 1911 pistols which have interchangeable parts, or you think of AR15 rifles, which have interchangeable parts. There are no true CZ clones but there are CZ look-a-likes that are mechanically different.

I'd have to disagree with this to a degree. I've done trigger work to CZs, an Armalite and Tanfoglios. The fire control parts are very similar to CZs, but simplified a bit. The way the trigger bar is lifted is a bit different, but the function is the same. The firing pin stop is reversed so it drops on the trigger pull instead of lifting the stop and there are some changes to the sear cage to allow the safety. The hammer spring is modified too, but all of the parts perform an identical function but in a slightly different way. I can (and do) run CZ mags in my Armalite with no issues. I think they qualify as modified clones since the operation is identical, but with some updates.

 

[melensdad]

So "similar" is not the same, last time I checked. You admit that parts are reversed, others modified, that there are changes.

Thank you for providing more evidence to back up my statements. These guns are, by your statements, NOT clones of the CZ75 pistols.

Tanfoglio changed them so as to avoid a legal battle.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Sig P320. Multiple configurations, easy part swap, minimal logistical requirements as entire firing control groups can be swapped with no tools.

 

[88E30M50]

So "similar" is not the same, last time I checked. You admit that parts are reversed, others modified, that there are changes.
Thank you for providing more evidence to back up my statements. These guns are, by your statements, NOT clones of the CZ75 pistols.
Tanfoglio changed them so as to avoid a legal battle.

I guess it comes down to your definition of a clone. If you think of a clone as an exact copy of an original design, then you are right. I tend to think of them as a derivative of a design with a small margin of change. The CZ clones are not original design. I believe that when a manufacturer sits down with a set of an existing pistols blueprints and tries to figure out how to legally manufacture that pistol, it's a clone. If a manufacturer sits down in front of a blank sheet of paper and uses other pistols to draw inspiration from, but that strays greatly from any one original design, then it is an original design. My understanding is more like accepting a Russian TU-4 as a clone of an American B-29.

In other words, I think of it as being original or not. It sounds like your definition varies slightly in that it's original, a derivative or a clone. Either way, they all fall into the same family of excellent designs.

Edit: My understanding follows the definition often given for 'clone'. That is:
a person or thing that duplicates, imitates, or closely resembles another in appearance, function, performance, or style:

 

[cedartop]

Sig P320. Multiple configurations, easy part swap, minimal logistical requirements as entire firing control groups can be swapped with no tools.

I don't like the gun, but if it could pass the trials that would be a pretty good idea.