So I got to thinking...what's the point of a short barrel .44 mag?

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  • BehindBlueI's

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    Other than "its fun" and "its cool" is there any real advantage to a .44 in a 3" barrel or less? The Ruger Kodiak backpacker got me to thinking about it. Its a neat looking gun, although something I personally have no use for, but it got me thinking how much oomph you lose from a .44 to go to that size barrel. Poking around BBTI and the like, it seems like you're into .45 ACP weight and velocity at that point and sectional density should be a wash, plus you're gaining a lot more muzzle blast and recoil to do so. I'm fully aware I may be missing something. What is it? What's the practical reason to go .44 instead of .45 ACP in this platform?

    On a related note, say out of a 4-5" barrel for general use (not hunting Cape Buffalo or shooting down Iranian nukes), .45 LC or .44 Magnum? I've never owned or shot a .45 LC so not sure what to expect in terms of recoil compared to a .44 mag, but I see it runs at much lower pressures and would likely be easier on the gun if not the shooter.

    (Yes, I know .44 LC is also referred to as .44 Colt for the inevitable poster who will tell me there's no such thing as a 'long colt' cartridge.)
     

    Leo

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    A short barrel .44 gives you big punch easier to conceal, a lot more difficult for distance accuracy. Any follow up shot is slower beacuse the heavy recoil really shifts around your grip. If I had a bear ripping my tent open, that would not matter. Don't forget that the .45acp gives up performance in the short barrel compacts also. The nearly double velocity makes the 240 grain magnum bullet hit a LOT harder than the realitively gentle 230 grain bullet in the .45 acp. Since it is a rimmed case, it is a lot easier to deal with in rugged, dependable revolver.

    .44 mag revolvers can also shoot .44 spl ammo, that truly is as, if not more, gentle as a .45acp.

    Standard loadings for the .45 COLT are really tame, as they fit a lot of really old pistols that cannot take the pressures available in more modern loadings. In modern firearms, especially the big Freedom Arms revolvers, the .45LC can easily be loaded to .44 Mag pressures. That makes a very powerful round. N frame Smith and Wessons and some Rugers are stron enough for the higher performance .45 COLT rounds.

    The .454 Casull is really just a high pressure load for .45COLT that is longer so it will not accidentally be loaded into an old weak handgun that could fail at that intensity.
     
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    BehindBlueI's

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    A short barrel .44 gives you big punch easier to conceal, a lot more difficult for distance accuracy. Any follow up shot is slower beacuse the heavy recoil really shifts around your grip. If I had a bear ripping my tent open, that would not matter. The nearly double velocity makes the .240 grain bullet hit a LOT harder than the realitively gentle .45 acp.

    But you don't have nearly double velocity out of a 3" barrel.

    3" .44 240 gr: 1069 fps
    3" .45 230 gr: 814 fps
    3" .45+P 230 gr: 925 fps

    Lighter bullets are nearly the same speeds.

    BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .45 Auto Results
    BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .44 Mag Results
     

    Leo

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    OK, with those figures you only have over 20% more velocity in a bullet that has 5% more weight. Less with the +P offering. Punch those figures into the ft. lb, energy equation, and that is the exact number of your energy advantage.

    Your +P figures calculate to 448 ft lb, and your figures for the short .44 calculate to 609 ft lb. Ever hunted wild boar? You will appreciate every extra lb of energy.

    Standard muzzle energy on a 1911 is about 400 ft lb, a standard .44 (probably a 6 inch) is rated about 1000 ft lb.

    I am really surprised that the 3" acp in your references lost so little velocity. I lost way more that that between my 5" and my officers model 1911's. Fast powders need less barrel length.

    You are not seeing the big picture, if you want the performance, you get to justify buying yourself a new revolver! :yesway:
     
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    Zoub

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    The same argument can be made when comparing .45 to 10mm. Its not equal to the 10mm but enough to be reasonable and not have to add another caliber. I used this same logic 15 years ago when I got rid of .44mag and did not buy 10mm, just stuck with .45. If you like numbers and ballistics you can slice them all day long. Don't ever shoot a .44mag lever gun like a Marlin guide gun version of one, you will get instantly sucked in by the caliber. Shoot a nice .44mag revolver with .44 Special, wham its an orgy in your hand.

    However, 10 years ago due to injuries and anticipation of old age I added 9mm so I would be familiar with it if I ever have to drop .45. If I was young, I would probably just do 10mm and 9mm and skip .45 and 44mag altogether. I have moments now where I almost go buy two 10mm Glocks and commit to it....................but that means more mags in another caliber.

    When .300blk came along I went with it. For me, in an AR platform, it does more then 9mm, 10mm or .44mag.
     

    dak109

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    44 to 45 Colt, IMHO, not too big of deal.
    44 to 45 ACP, unless you are shooting a moon clipped 45 revolver, bigger difference from the reloading standpoint. With a revolver you don't have to chase brass. That was a big one for me years ago. Plus he hunting laws that were in effect at the time also swayed me to 44 mag. Although that requires a longer barrel than you were discussing.
     

    lizerdking

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    A short barrel .44 gives you big punch easier to conceal, a lot more difficult for distance accuracy. Any follow up shot is slower beacuse the heavy recoil really shifts around your grip. If I had a bear ripping my tent open, that would not matter. Don't forget that the .45acp gives up performance in the short barrel compacts also. The nearly double velocity makes the .240 grain magnum bullet hit a LOT harder than the realitively gentle 230 grain bullet in the .45 acp. Since it is a rimmed case, it is a lot easier to deal with in rugged, dependable revolver.

    .44 mag revolvers can also shoot .44 spl ammo, that truly is as, if not more, gentle as a .45acp.

    Standard loadings for the .45 COLT are really tame, as they fit a lot of really old pistols that cannot take the pressures available in more modern loadings. In modern firearms, especially the big Freedom Arms revolvers, the .45LC can easily be loaded to .44 Mag pressures. That makes a very powerful round. N frame Smith and Wessons and some Rugers are stron enough for the higher performance .45 COLT rounds.

    The .454 Casull is really just a high pressure load for .45COLT that is longer so it will not accidentally be loaded into an old weak handgun that could fail at that intensity.

    Do they make that weight bullet for the .9mm glock as well?
     

    indiucky

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    Other than "its fun" and "its cool" is there any real advantage to a .44 in a 3" barrel or less? The Ruger Kodiak backpacker got me to thinking about it. I'm fully aware I may be missing something. What is it? What's the practical reason to go .44 instead of .45 ACP in this platform?


    It's got a neat beat and it's easy to dance too? :)

    Gun cranks are not practical people....When you take away the "it's fun" and "it's cool" factor you can eliminate most firearms...What's the practical reason for a K 31 Swiss rifle? What's the practical reason for a Kentucky long rifle? There are folks on here that think if one carries a revolver for defense they must ride a horse to work and that the revolver has no place in the firearms stable....

    I like big ass snubbies...I have a Smith Lew Horton 24-3 snubbie in .44 Special that I adore...Not because it's practical but because it's beautiful, fun to shoot, and if I ever carried the big old thing it could be used to defend my life....

    Sometimes it's just fun to see a big old flash come out of a big framed, short barreled revolver......It just kick starts my heart....:)

    IMHO of course brother......:ingo:
     

    Leo

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    It's got a neat beat and it's easy to dance too? :)

    Gun cranks are not practical people....When you take away the "it's fun" and "it's cool" factor you can eliminate most firearms...What's the practical reason for a K 31 Swiss rifle? What's the practical reason for a Kentucky long rifle? There are folks on here that think if one carries a revolver for defense they must ride a horse to work and that the revolver has no place in the firearms stable....

    I like big ass snubbies...I have a Smith Lew Horton 24-3 snubbie in .44 Special that I adore...Not because it's practical but because it's beautiful, fun to shoot, and if I ever carried the big old thing it could be used to defend my life....

    Sometimes it's just fun to see a big old flash come out of a big framed, short barreled revolver......It just kick starts my heart....:)

    IMHO of course brother......:ingo:


    I have been charged with the crime of being a revolver guy.......guilty as charged.
     

    Leadeye

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    45lc lets you step up to some pretty substantial bullets if you reload, I shoot both 44 mag and 45 lc in both revolvers and rifles, both good choices in my opinion. Shortest revolver would be a Model 29 4", good carry gun in a Bianchi shoulder holster. Inside it's useful range 45lc hits hard in rifles with cast bullets. My Henry put a Lyman 452651 325 grain cast through a deer lengthwise.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    It's got a neat beat and it's easy to dance too? :)

    Gun cranks are not practical people....When you take away the "it's fun" and "it's cool" factor you can eliminate most firearms...What's the practical reason for a K 31 Swiss rifle? What's the practical reason for a Kentucky long rifle? There are folks on here that think if one carries a revolver for defense they must ride a horse to work and that the revolver has no place in the firearms stable....

    I like big ass snubbies...I have a Smith Lew Horton 24-3 snubbie in .44 Special that I adore...Not because it's practical but because it's beautiful, fun to shoot, and if I ever carried the big old thing it could be used to defend my life....

    Sometimes it's just fun to see a big old flash come out of a big framed, short barreled revolver......It just kick starts my heart....:)

    IMHO of course brother......:ingo:

    I'm not disputing any of that. I own a single action .44 because reasons...and a M1903 because reasons...and...yeah I get all that.

    I'm asking specifically about practical benefits in this one, though. Other than cool factor and just because, is there any real benefit to the .44 vs .45 in a 3" barrel? On paper they look pretty same-same in terms of effectiveness. I'm just curious if I'm missing something.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    OK, with those figures you only have over 20% more velocity in a bullet that has 5% more weight. Less with the +P offering. Punch those figures into the ft. lb, energy equation, and that is the exact number of your energy advantage.

    Your +P figures calculate to 448 ft lb, and your figures for the short .44 calculate to 609 ft lb. Ever hunted wild boar? You will appreciate every extra lb of energy.

    Standard muzzle energy on a 1911 is about 400 ft lb, a standard .44 (probably a 6 inch) is rated about 1000 ft lb.

    I am really surprised that the 3" acp in your references lost so little velocity. I lost way more that that between my 5" and my officers model 1911's. Fast powders need less barrel length.

    You are not seeing the big picture, if you want the performance, you get to justify buying yourself a new revolver! :yesway:

    I was surprised myself. When the XDS came out that was one of my main concerns. Will the bullet just sort of tumble out the end of the barrel? Those who've chrono'd it say it loses very little, though.

    I'm not super impressed with ME ratings. They are very skewed toward speed and don't necessarily equate to penetration or tissue destruction.
     

    indiucky

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    I'm not disputing any of that. I own a single action .44 because reasons...and a M1903 because reasons...and...yeah I get all that.

    I'm asking specifically about practical benefits in this one, though. Other than cool factor and just because, is there any real benefit to the .44 vs .45 in a 3" barrel? On paper they look pretty same-same in terms of effectiveness. I'm just curious if I'm missing something.

    Nope....There are no practical reasons and there is no benefit other than "cool", "big flame", "Gun guys are weird", etc......However, It is tough to find a .45 acp in a revolver that short and although one can find compact 1911's with that short of a barrel there can often times be reliability issues with the compact 1911's or if perhaps one prefers revolvers over semi autos for their weapon of choice while cruising the back country...I AM trying BBI...:)

    OR WAIT!!!!! One has a .44 magnum lever gun and wants a companion compact gun to go with it???????

    Maybe I just want to be a "Cowboy BB"...;)

    [video=youtube;glb2U6y-GdU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glb2U6y-GdU[/video]
     

    VERT

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    I will broaden the discussion. I question the reason for any magnum load in revolvers with less then a 4" barrel. Not enough length to burn powder and take advantage of the cartridge. I understand why a person would want a snubby chambered in 357 or 44 mag for comparability reasons and durability. But they would be served just as well with a good 38 or 44 special load.
     

    Woobie

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    To defend St Maurice in the Alpine Redoubt . . . duh.

    The point of all the goofy crap that is marketed to us is to sell.

    Savor the mercatus!

    Wait. Are you telling me there is marketing in the firearms industry? Next you're gonna tell me the gun media makes their money from generating hype. :tinfoil:
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    OK, with those figures you only have over 20% more velocity in a bullet that has 5% more weight. Less with the +P offering. Punch those figures into the ft. lb, energy equation, and that is the exact number of your energy advantage.

    Your +P figures calculate to 448 ft lb, and your figures for the short .44 calculate to 609 ft lb. Ever hunted wild boar? You will appreciate every extra lb of energy.

    I'm not super impressed with ME ratings. They are very skewed toward speed and don't necessarily equate to penetration or tissue destruction.


    I'm going to dial that back a bit. After thinking about it, I realized my own internal bias on the subject as I generally consider self defense against people as opposed to large dangerous animals. I immediately was thinking "with a properly designed hollowpoint engineered to the speed at which the projectile is traveling..." instead of "hard cast penetrating as deep as possible in a dangerous animal.

    In that context, you are right, the .44 definitely has an advantage.

    Now for a question that will either be painfully obvious for people who didn't pick their seat in match class based on where certain females sat or will be pointed and laughed at...by pretty much those same people.

    Do low pressure cartridges lose less velocity out of shorter barrels because low pressures are easier to build up quickly?
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    I will broaden the discussion. I question the reason for any magnum load in revolvers with less then a 4" barrel. Not enough length to burn powder and take advantage of the cartridge. I understand why a person would want a snubby chambered in 357 or 44 mag for comparability reasons and durability. But they would be served just as well with a good 38 or 44 special load.

    3" .357 is within 50-75fps of 4" with the right loads. I don't have a short .44 so I can't chrono anything there and contribute anything.
     
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