Engraved 80% lowers now considered a MG...

[aaron580]

Heard from the BATF today regarding seized Sear pin engraving - AR15.COM

This is a verdict of a member of AR15.com that had an 80% lower engraved with markings for a clone rifle build, which I have been into for the past few months. Some of the engravings for M16, M4 clones and so on, have a template for the "sear" hole on the lower for a more correct look. Even though these lowers were machined out using a regular jig, and no auto parts of any type were used, the AFT now considers these "machine guns". This is the load of **** we deal with, unbelievable. I would lawyer up personally, and with Colt and Troy engraving lowers with the same "hole", I am curious to see what happens to them. The raid was conducted at US anodizing several weeks ago. Here is an example of an engraved lower that is now an "MG"

 

[T.Lex]

From a regulatory perspective, the interpretation makes sense. One of the things that makes the semi-auto lowers NOT MGs is that they can't accept the sear without the hole.

Creating the hole leads to a reasonable belief that the intent is to make a MG.

I'm not saying it makes sense from a gun perspective - the whole itself does not create an MG. I'm just saying that it makes sense from a line-drawing perspective.

 

[indyjoe]

This isn't a hole though, is it. It is a machined pocket at the same location of the hole, right?

Obviously it makes drilling the hole easier, but it shouldn't be illegal until that step.

 

[aaron580]

From a regulatory perspective, the interpretation makes sense. One of the things that makes the semi-auto lowers NOT MGs is that they can't accept the sear without the hole.

Creating the hole leads to a reasonable belief that the intent is to make a MG.

I'm not saying it makes sense from a gun perspective - the whole itself does not create an MG. I'm just saying that it makes sense from a line-drawing perspective.

Look at how the inside of an AR15 lower is machined out compared to a real M16, it would be impossible to fit the FCG inside. Thats the main difference between the 2 anyway. Unless you have a drop in auto sear, which then it wouldn't matter if its engraved or not... Its nothing to say that somebody could have taken a punch and slapped it with a hammer in that general region, that would also be considered intent I would think... or even a paint mark

 

[T.Lex]

Look at how the inside of an AR15 lower is machined out compared to a real M16, it would be impossible to fit the FCG inside. Thats the main difference between the 2 anyway. Unless you have a drop in auto sear, which then it wouldn't matter if its engraved or not... Its nothing to say that somebody could have taken a punch and slapped it with a hammer in that general region, that would also be considered intent I would think... or even a paint mark

So... not really news (fake or otherwise) but regulating means drawing lines.

Yes, a mark or drill bit at the right location would also be intent, but if you're trying to determine "when" an 80% lower changes from future semi-auto to a future MG, drilling that hole (for an auto sear) would be an easy way to differentiate.

 

[Woobie]

I can't fault the ATF for doing its job, I guess. This is the monster congress created. The smaller the ATF and the less regulation, the less of this crap we get. That fix will have to be done at the congressional level. Hopefully now we have a POTUS that can help us.

 

[Hkindiana]

This isn't a hole though, is it. It is a machined pocket at the same location of the hole, right?

Obviously it makes drilling the hole easier, but it shouldn't be illegal until that step.

The fake hole markings are PURPOSELY put in the WRONG place. If the ATF (or ANYONE for that matter) used the fake marking as a guide for drilling a hole, it would be a USELESS hole, not a FA hole. The markings are put on purely as DECORATION, and Troy AND Colt are currently putting the SAME MARKINGS on their retro receivers. Using this "logic" a sharpie marking in the incorrect area on a receiver would make it a machinegun. So watch out, if you have a SCRATCH OR NICK on any of your AR15 lowers that is in THE GENERAL VICINITY of a FA pin hole, you may now be in possesion of an ilkegal machinegun.

 

[indyjoe]

The fake hole markings are PURPOSELY put in the WRONG place. If the ATF (or ANYONE for that matter) used the fake marking as a guide for drilling a hole, it would be a USELESS hole, not a FA hole. The markings are put on purely as DECORATION, and Troy AND Colt are currently putting the SAME MARKINGS on their retro receivers. Using this "logic" a sharpie marking in the incorrect area on a receiver would make it a machinegun. So watch out, if you have a SCRATCH OR NICK on any of your AR15 lowers that is in THE GENERAL VICINITY of a FA pin hole, you may now be in possesion of an ilkegal machinegun.

This makes it even more nonsense.

 

[T.Lex]

The fake hole markings are PURPOSELY put in the WRONG place. If the ATF (or ANYONE for that matter) used the fake marking as a guide for drilling a hole, it would be a USELESS hole, not a FA hole. The markings are put on purely as DECORATION, and Troy AND Colt are currently putting the SAME MARKINGS on their retro receivers. Using this "logic" a sharpie marking in the incorrect area on a receiver would make it a machinegun. So watch out, if you have a SCRATCH OR NICK on any of your AR15 lowers that is in THE GENERAL VICINITY of a FA pin hole, you may now be in possesion of an ilkegal machinegun.

This makes it even more nonsense.

Yeah, that would totally change things. If it isn't in an actual place where it would work, then what they've done is regulated inoperable future MG lowers.

If that's the case, I got nothin.

 

[Hkindiana]

Here is a photo of a CURRENT PRODUCTION ATF APOROVED Troy AR with the fake sear pin engraving;

 

[T.Lex]

View attachment 52659 Here is a photo of a CURRENT PRODUCTION ATF APOROVED Troy AR with the fake sear pin engraving;

So 2 questions:
1) is that just an engraving, or is it drilled and pinned?
B) is it in the right place?

Thx!

 

[Hkindiana]

So 2 questions:
1) is that just an engraving, or is it drilled and pinned?
B) is it in the right place?

Thx!

1) it is just a SHALLOW engraving
2) I don't know if the Troy marking is in the right place or not, but the receivers that the ATF seized had them in the WRONG place

 

[Hop]

This is absurd and yet another reason to contact our reps about defunding the ATF. Sorry to the ATF people reading this but we try to play by the rules (as much as most of think they are unconstitutional). You (ATF) should have to do the same.

When an Echo trigger gets an OK but a not drilled through engraved dot or a shoe lace is a machine gun you (ATF) lose all credibility.

 

[MikeBrennan]

Heard from the BATF today regarding seized Sear pin engraving - AR15.COM

This is a verdict of a member of AR15.com that had an 80% lower engraved with markings for a clone rifle build, which I have been into for the past few months. Some of the engravings for M16, M4 clones and so on, have a template for the "sear" hole on the lower for a more correct look. Even though these lowers were machined out using a regular jig, and no auto parts of any type were used, the AFT now considers these "machine guns". This is the load of **** we deal with, unbelievable. I would lawyer up personally, and with Colt and Troy engraving lowers with the same "hole", I am curious to see what happens to them. The raid was conducted at US anodizing several weeks ago. Here is an example of an engraved lower that is now an "MG"

The BATF to be abolished.

 

[MikeBrennan]

This is absurd and yet another reason to contact our reps about defunding the ATF. Sorry to the ATF people reading this but we try to play by the rules (as much as most of think they are unconstitutional). You (ATF) should have to do the same.

When an Echo trigger gets an OK but a not drilled through engraved dot or a shoe lace is a machine gun you (ATF) lose all credibility.

ATF has never had credibility

 

[Old Dog]

So ATF... if I drill lightening holes in my receiver (any receiver) do I now have a MG? I MIGHT be able to externally manipulate the fire control group. What intent to convert exists if this engraved hole is in the wrong place? And the gun haters wonder why we oppose any and every new proposal, give them an inch and they will take over.

 

[Hkindiana]

I want to know WHO comes up with these ARBITRARY decisions, and HOW they can be stopped before they decide that ALL semi-automatic firearms are machine-guns because rhey CAN be modified into one.

 

[Vigilant]

I want to know WHO comes up with these ARBITRARY decisions, and HOW they can be stopped before they decide that ALL semi-automatic firearms are machine-guns because rhey CAN be modified into one.

My guess is someone called or wrote ATF for a "determination" as happened with the whole SIG brace and shouldering. Enough knuckleheads bother them asking the same thing, then they may look at it, and drop a ruling?