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Springfield trap door?!
- Thread starter Cowboy45
- Start date
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It has the makers mark I believe it is called on the side.. It is a full sized I think it was really long.. Very thing looked to be original with the quick look I had at it.. I don't have pictures of it.. I never thought of taking any..
I own several antique guns and in particular a Springfield 1873 Carbine manufactured in 1888. The price of $800.00 is a decent price depending on what your looking for in the gun. Mine is a collector as well as a occasional shooter (only use 45-70 Black Powder loads) My advice would be to get some pics of the gun then do some research on the internet. If your really serious about owning a trapdoor Springfield there is a lot of knowledge to be learned. The originality of the parts, (Sights, Stock, Lock plate, Breech block, etc) make a big difference in the guns value and collectability.
Also any stock cartouche markings will assist you in your research and ad more value to the rifle. Your not only buying a gun but a piece of history.
In a collectors eyes, a Trapdoor rifle with original parts and a natural aged patina on the metal parts is worth more than a rifle that has been refinished. Remember to, that Black powder was / is corrosive so bore and condition can easily be an issue.
Do some research and then decide if the rifle is what your looking for and the asking price is inline with the guns condition and originality.
I will try to answer any questions that I can.
Brett
dominicandemon
Marksman
Unless it is a Mosin that is.
I really like the Trapdoor. There is more to it than first appears, they were the service rifle through some of our country's most defining moments, rifles and parts are fairly reasonable as old martial arms go, and they do shoot pretty well.
I even wrote a little thingy on them, here:
The Trap Door Springfield | Practically Shooting
As they have said, it would take more info to say what it's worth. It could be worth $800...or twice that...or half that.
The Trapdoor was in service a long time, and during the years it was the standard issue rifle, improvements and changes were made regularly. That creates a lot of room for variations.
Also, there was a shooting war of some kind going on most of it's life, so the changes were deemed important and got made when they could. Most could be changed easily. Sometimes, a change would come, but another change (or new rifle variant) would come out before the first change could be implemented on every earlier rifles. And the farther a fort was from Springfield, the less likely the changes would get done on their rifles. That created a lot of rifles that received some updates but not others. An earlier model rifle might have more late parts than a later model.
Trapdoors were often a mismatch of parts when in service, and when they got sold off as surplus it got worse. Nobody cared much about keeping any ex-military arm "correct" then, and they cared less about it with Trapdoors many thought were obsolete when new. They were sold after a period of rapid rifle advancement, so they had little value. It was a real Rodney Dangerfield, even among other surplus guns. No respect.
From reading old hunting articles, a Trapdoor was what you bought if you couldn't afford anything else. You went over to a big barrel full of them in the corner of the sporting goods store and picked one. Before that, they were probably taken apart and piled in a warehouse somewhere, with stocks here, barreled actions there, and the screws scattered all over. When an order came in for a dozen of them, some kid making pennies per week grabbed 12 stocks, 12 barreled actions, and assembled them with whatever screws fit and packaged them up.
This is in addition to the places like Bannerman's chopping them up making fake carbines and budget sporters.
So we ended up with Trapdoors mixed up like they were put in a blender. It seems like we've become accustomed to this fact, so that the "average condition" Trapdoor is one having only a little bit wrong with it. And that's how the values seem to run across a wide range:
-A little bit wrong seems acceptable, where it would be treated like a crime if it was some other rifles.
-Those that are correct are worth a bundle because of it being so uncommon.
-The ones at the bottom end, which would be worth salvaging and restoring if it was another rifle type, get passed over because there always seems to be enough decent Trapdoors for the relative few Trapdoor collectors out there.
If it's any reference point for you, I have an 1884 in about average condition. Mine had some small things wrong, like having the wrong screws in a couple of places, and one larger issue- a crack at the forend cap. Any stock cartouches are long ago worn (or maybe sanded then worn) away. Bore condition was excellent. Overall, it was a nice shooter that could get most things fixed with $10 in screws.
Mine cost $575 four years ago. That seemed about right at the time.
I looked at another 1884 a few months before, that was in better condition outside, with faint cartouches, but a bit dark in the bore. Nicer collector rifle, but not as good for a shooter. It was $625 I think, but that was negotiable and I probably could have got it for the same $575.
This was four years ago, but I don't think the Trapdoor market has changed much.
I even wrote a little thingy on them, here:
The Trap Door Springfield | Practically Shooting
As they have said, it would take more info to say what it's worth. It could be worth $800...or twice that...or half that.
The Trapdoor was in service a long time, and during the years it was the standard issue rifle, improvements and changes were made regularly. That creates a lot of room for variations.
Also, there was a shooting war of some kind going on most of it's life, so the changes were deemed important and got made when they could. Most could be changed easily. Sometimes, a change would come, but another change (or new rifle variant) would come out before the first change could be implemented on every earlier rifles. And the farther a fort was from Springfield, the less likely the changes would get done on their rifles. That created a lot of rifles that received some updates but not others. An earlier model rifle might have more late parts than a later model.
Trapdoors were often a mismatch of parts when in service, and when they got sold off as surplus it got worse. Nobody cared much about keeping any ex-military arm "correct" then, and they cared less about it with Trapdoors many thought were obsolete when new. They were sold after a period of rapid rifle advancement, so they had little value. It was a real Rodney Dangerfield, even among other surplus guns. No respect.
From reading old hunting articles, a Trapdoor was what you bought if you couldn't afford anything else. You went over to a big barrel full of them in the corner of the sporting goods store and picked one. Before that, they were probably taken apart and piled in a warehouse somewhere, with stocks here, barreled actions there, and the screws scattered all over. When an order came in for a dozen of them, some kid making pennies per week grabbed 12 stocks, 12 barreled actions, and assembled them with whatever screws fit and packaged them up.
This is in addition to the places like Bannerman's chopping them up making fake carbines and budget sporters.
So we ended up with Trapdoors mixed up like they were put in a blender. It seems like we've become accustomed to this fact, so that the "average condition" Trapdoor is one having only a little bit wrong with it. And that's how the values seem to run across a wide range:
-A little bit wrong seems acceptable, where it would be treated like a crime if it was some other rifles.
-Those that are correct are worth a bundle because of it being so uncommon.
-The ones at the bottom end, which would be worth salvaging and restoring if it was another rifle type, get passed over because there always seems to be enough decent Trapdoors for the relative few Trapdoor collectors out there.
If it's any reference point for you, I have an 1884 in about average condition. Mine had some small things wrong, like having the wrong screws in a couple of places, and one larger issue- a crack at the forend cap. Any stock cartouches are long ago worn (or maybe sanded then worn) away. Bore condition was excellent. Overall, it was a nice shooter that could get most things fixed with $10 in screws.
Mine cost $575 four years ago. That seemed about right at the time.
I looked at another 1884 a few months before, that was in better condition outside, with faint cartouches, but a bit dark in the bore. Nicer collector rifle, but not as good for a shooter. It was $625 I think, but that was negotiable and I probably could have got it for the same $575.
This was four years ago, but I don't think the Trapdoor market has changed much.
Depending on condition, that is an average price. Does it have cartouches? Is the metal good with no pitting?
I bought this 1873 and it is in pretty average condition. You can see my repair of a common stock check behind the lock plate. The stock has no cartouches. This is probably worth about $600.
My intent on buying this rifle is not to have something else to burn powder in.. It is more to preserve the historic factor behind it.. I have always like the history behind the firearm as you mentioned.. And I think that its something my generation has a lack of interest in.. But then again I don't like to over pay for anything especially guns which is very easy to do with even modern firearms.. I will have to take some pictures of it next time I am in the shop and post em so I can get a little better idea from ya'll of the value..
Yeah, the Trapdoor's service history is often overlooked, I think. It may not have been cutting edge, many thought it was obsolete when adopted, and it may have only lasted because the country was flat broke for decades after the War of Secession, but it served well through some of the defining periods in our history. From the Indian Wars through the Philippine Insurrection and the Spanish-American War, it was there. Plus all the time used in guard and drill service.
Using one a while, I could see the big simple parts had their benefits. You slap the heavy hammer back, throw the breech open, drop a big ol' cartridge in, and flip the breech closed- the clumsiest recruit in a dark fort watch tower or skilled veteran charging on horseback could do it.
A cartouche is a stamp in the wood. With these, it will usually be three letters (like SWP or ESA) which are the inspectors initials, plus the year, showing acceptance. Collectors like that to authenticate the rifle.
I bought mine off Gunbroker because there are more Trapdoors on there at any given time than I'd see in a year of gun shows. The downside of course was sifting through all of them to determine what was what.
If you do buy one, I suggest getting a reprint of the old manual. Unlike later arms manuals, it's pretty interesting and informative. Besides telling how to use the rifle and accessories like bayonets and broken case extractor, it goes through each part one at a time, telling its construction, purpose, and any upgrades. The ammo is broken down in its construction and there are more ballistics tables than most could ever use. The Colt SAA and S&W revolvers are covered also, but in less detail. The complete title is:
"Description and Rules For The Management of the Springfield Rifle, Carbine, and Revolvers, Caliber .45"
There are different editions (years). I got a later one, and it told of many of the changes made over time.
They don't cost a lot, and are worth getting even if you never buy the rifle.
Using one a while, I could see the big simple parts had their benefits. You slap the heavy hammer back, throw the breech open, drop a big ol' cartridge in, and flip the breech closed- the clumsiest recruit in a dark fort watch tower or skilled veteran charging on horseback could do it.
A cartouche is a stamp in the wood. With these, it will usually be three letters (like SWP or ESA) which are the inspectors initials, plus the year, showing acceptance. Collectors like that to authenticate the rifle.
I bought mine off Gunbroker because there are more Trapdoors on there at any given time than I'd see in a year of gun shows. The downside of course was sifting through all of them to determine what was what.
If you do buy one, I suggest getting a reprint of the old manual. Unlike later arms manuals, it's pretty interesting and informative. Besides telling how to use the rifle and accessories like bayonets and broken case extractor, it goes through each part one at a time, telling its construction, purpose, and any upgrades. The ammo is broken down in its construction and there are more ballistics tables than most could ever use. The Colt SAA and S&W revolvers are covered also, but in less detail. The complete title is:
"Description and Rules For The Management of the Springfield Rifle, Carbine, and Revolvers, Caliber .45"
There are different editions (years). I got a later one, and it told of many of the changes made over time.
They don't cost a lot, and are worth getting even if you never buy the rifle.
My father has a couple of them and they are a blast to shoot. We have no problem ringing steel at about 150+yds. He recently just got a 1873 trapdoor carbine that I cant wait to shoot. The 1868 is fun but the 50-70 brass is rarer then hens teeth.
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Some great info in this thread! FWIW, Al Frasca literally wrote the book on Trapdoor's and if you can make it to the Louisville show this weekend he always has a table there. If you need parts or info, he has it. Very nice guy to talk to, and his prices are fair. Here is a link to his website: The U.S. Springfield Trapdoor Rifle Information Center
I guess I'd better put away all those Lugers, Broom handle Mauser's, Bolt action Mausers, Winchester's...what, did they go bad in the fridge? Got any wall hangers you need to get rid of cheap because they are 'unsafe'?
