Looking for 1/2 MOA in .308 win

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  • MohawkSlim

    Expert
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    2   0   0
    Mar 11, 2015
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    15th Street, Bedford
    1/2 is a tall order to fill.

    Most of the new production rifles (Rem 700, Win 70, Savage 10, Weatherby Vanguard, etc.) are going to get you pretty good accuracy but 1/2 moa is really splitting hairs. The shooter, the load, trigger, glass, etc., will all play into that. $1000 is a pretty good budget to start with. You may not get 1/2 right out of the box but you can most definitely get one ragged hole with that money.
     

    sht4brnz

    Sharpshooter
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    14   1   0
    Aug 29, 2012
    352
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    N.IndNpls
    Rem700, savage 10, tikka t3 are probably the most accurate for under $1k.
    Will they be under 1/2"? Maybe.
    Mohawk points out a lot of the variables that need to be taken into consideration
     

    sloughfoot

    Grandmaster
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    26   0   0
    Apr 17, 2008
    7,153
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    Huntertown, IN
    I have been shooting rifle competitions for 45 or more years. I can count and remember the days that I was capable of 1/2 MOA, no matter how good the rifle or ammo. How capable are you?
     

    2in1evtime

    Master
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    61   1   0
    Oct 30, 2011
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    retired-midwest
    Savage model 10, cz heavy barrel. But like others have said it is dependent upon the shooter to do there part. And on another note i have never been able to shoot sub moa with factory loaded ammo, all reloads for a particular rifle.
     

    Woobie

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 19, 2014
    7,197
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    Losantville
    I have a newer Rem 700. It was an ADL model I bought new for $400. I purchased an HS Precision stock and bottoms metal used for $375, quality rings and a 20 moa scope base for over another $100, and put a $900 Vortex on it. It also has a $100 Harris bipod. I bedded the action and bottom metal, lapped the lugs, lapped the scope rings and broke in the barrel. The chamber is cut so deeply I can only seat the bullets to within .060" of the lands, and that is sketchy. So I usually jump .080". That is just insane, and Remington should be ashamed of themselves. Because of this, I will eventually have a Bartlein or Krieger installed. All told, that will be another $600-700. But as it is, with carefully designed and meticulously loaded ammunition, I have shot exactly two 5 shot groups under 1/2 moa. One was around .430", and another was around .470", IIRC. But due to shooter error, the fact that I shoot from a bipod, not a bench rest, and what I believe are inconsistencies from the bullet jump, it most consistently shoots groups more like .650-800". 2.25" at 300 yards. This is realistically good enough for me, and the shooter needs to get better before the rifle does. The barrel situation just makes me mad, mostly.

    So that is $975 for the rifle, plus supplies like bedding compound and such. $900 more for glass, and I have no idea how much in load development.

    I never experimented with lighter flat base bullets or medium charges. So it is conceivable that there is more accuracy to be found in this rifle. But I made pushing high B.C. bullets very fast a priority.
     

    roscott

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    39   1   0
    Mar 1, 2009
    1,652
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    Surgeon Scalpel?

    Seriously though a 1/2 MOA rifle out of the box will be thousands, if it exists. Sako guarantees 5 shot 1MOA groups with their rifles, and those are very well built rifles upwards of $1K.

    I don't have the reference, but I recall reading a study done at an International shooting competition. Out of the hundreds of high end precision rifles present, there were FOUR that were true half MOA rifles.

    Your aspirations might be a bit lofty.
     

    42769vette

    Grandmaster
    Industry Partner
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    52   0   0
    Oct 6, 2008
    15,222
    113
    south of richmond in
    Surgeon Scalpel?

    Seriously though a 1/2 MOA rifle out of the box will be thousands, if it exists. Sako guarantees 5 shot 1MOA groups with their rifles, and those are very well built rifles upwards of $1K.

    I don't have the reference, but I recall reading a study done at an International shooting competition. Out of the hundreds of high end precision rifles present, there were FOUR that were true half MOA rifles.

    Your aspirations might be a bit lofty.

    Ive owned multiple custom action rifles. Out of all of them, I have never had a true 1/2 MOA rifle with me behind the trigger. I have a Stiller 260 (actually its in the classifieds because I dont use it) that comes closer than any rifle Ive ever owned. It averages about .6-.7 5 shot groups. I dont do called fliers, if I put 4 bullets in the same hole, then send 1 bullet 2 MOA right, thats a 2 MOA group. It has shot 1/2 MOA multiple times, it is not a 1/2 MOA rifle. It is a sub MOA rifle, probably a sub 3/4 MOA rifle, not sub 1/2 MOA. Keep in mind, this rifle was 4500 before glass.

    I know my first post sounded like a joke, but it really wasn't. Every rifle on the internet is sub MOA, for one reason or another when you get those same rifles on the firing like, the shooter "has a bad day, or wind got me, or I forgot about Coriolis, or ???". There is always a reason why they were not sub MOA that day.

    Sub MOA is not "1 time out of 200, I put 2 shots in the same hole" Sub MOA is, I can take this rifle, and go do no excuse.
     

    Woobie

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 19, 2014
    7,197
    63
    Losantville
    Surgeon Scalpel?

    Seriously though a 1/2 MOA rifle out of the box will be thousands, if it exists. Sako guarantees 5 shot 1MOA groups with their rifles, and those are very well built rifles upwards of $1K.

    I don't have the reference, but I recall reading a study done at an International shooting competition. Out of the hundreds of high end precision rifles present, there were FOUR that were true half MOA rifles.

    Your aspirations might be a bit lofty.

    I wonder what competition that was. I could see that in a tactical or rapid fire rifle, maybe. But in the slow fire bench rest circles, if you are only shooting 1/4 moa, you're not going to be competitive. But the Nessika Bay action alone will run you north of $1k.
     

    Woobie

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Dec 19, 2014
    7,197
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    Losantville
    Ive owned multiple custom action rifles. Out of all of them, I have never had a true 1/2 MOA rifle with me behind the trigger. I have a Stiller 260 (actually its in the classifieds because I dont use it) that comes closer than any rifle Ive ever owned. It averages about .6-.7 5 shot groups. I dont do called fliers, if I put 4 bullets in the same hole, then send 1 bullet 2 MOA right, thats a 2 MOA group. It has shot 1/2 MOA multiple times, it is not a 1/2 MOA rifle. It is a sub MOA rifle, probably a sub 3/4 MOA rifle, not sub 1/2 MOA. Keep in mind, this rifle was 4500 before glass.

    I know my first post sounded like a joke, but it really wasn't. Every rifle on the internet is sub MOA, for one reason or another when you get those same rifles on the firing like, the shooter "has a bad day, or wind got me, or I forgot about Coriolis, or ???". There is always a reason why they were not sub MOA that day.

    Sub MOA is not "1 time out of 200, I put 2 shots in the same hole" Sub MOA is, I can take this rifle, and go do no excuse.

    I agree about the flyers. The paper can't lie. I've looked at a lot of 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 moa groups and thought "if only I had made a better shot" or "why did this load cause that flyer?" But there it is, just a sucky group.

    That rifle might be mechanically 1/2 moa, but there are other factors in the combination that make the total package less consistent. I know mine isn't a 1/2 moa rifle, but I'm sure shooting from a bipod with me behind it and running hot loads has probably masked its potential.
     

    ChristianPatriot

    Grandmaster
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    28   0   0
    Feb 11, 2013
    12,801
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    Clifford, IN
    There's a good article out there about hit percentages at distance when changing variables such as a 1moa rifle to a 1/2moa rifle. I'll see if I can find it. I'll summarize: it doesn't make a huge difference. Caliber selection and wind calls are #1 and #2 IIRC.
     

    teddy12b

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    40   0   0
    Nov 25, 2008
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    I agree 100% on the internet unicorns of laser like rifles that never miss. I also think that you're best bet for rifle that'll get close to that out of the box is a heavy barreled savage. Personally I've been playing around with a 10 BA stealth and so far I've been really impressed by the accuracy. I don't shoot paper for groups though because I like hitting steel. That BA stealth has hit steel at 1,000 yards, but that's also a 3' diameter plate. In all honesty with most modern rifles you can make hits at 1,000 yards if you understand the concepts going on to do it. You'll need to talk with Alan about some glass, and you'll need some good training by people who've been doing it for a while who will take the time to get you setup.

    I've seen guys at the range who sit there all day smoking a cigarette and wait for a groundhog to come out at 800 yards before they fire their shot, and when they do it's not good for the groundhog. There are some real shooters out there.
     

    Woobie

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    0   0   0
    Dec 19, 2014
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    There's a good article out there about hit percentages at distance when changing variables such as a 1moa rifle to a 1/2moa rifle. I'll see if I can find it. I'll summarize: it doesn't make a huge difference. Caliber selection and wind calls are #1 and #2 IIRC.

    Probably written by Todd Hodnett. He's big on hit probability, and helped develop the Applied Ballistics calculator and a couple of the Horus reticles. One of his big metrics is density altitude. First round hit probability is effected quite a lot by proper calculation of density altitude. His methodology isn't particularly transferable to the 100 yd BR game, but it's the gospel for long range shooting.
     

    Woobie

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Dec 19, 2014
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    Losantville

    Tactically Fat

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    22   0   0
    Oct 8, 2014
    8,270
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    I think that if I had the time and the money, I could really dig long-range shooting.

    There's a 250 acre property down not too far from Nashville, IN that'd make for a great spot to do that from, me thinks. All it takes is money!
     

    roscott

    Master
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    39   1   0
    Mar 1, 2009
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    I think that if I had the time and the money, I could really dig long-range shooting.

    There's a 250 acre property down not too far from Nashville, IN that'd make for a great spot to do that from, me thinks. All it takes is money!
    Time, definitely. But I don't think it necessarily takes loads of cash anymore. I have gotten into long range shooting, using a rifle that cost $825 and a $500 scope. Ammo is expensive, but 50 rounds can be a full day of shooting. (Granted, I'm certainly not real F-class competition. If I'm shooting MOA I'm a happy shooter.)

    The biggest thing that it took for me was to stop chasing the next greatest gun, and start working with the one I have, and spend time LEARNING, whether from experience shooting, or from reading. Long range shooting definitely ranks as some of my favorite kind of shooting now.

    /threadjack
     

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