SS minor vs SS major

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  • BillD

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    OK, we all know at some matches it would be a definite advantage to have 10 rounds on board, even shooting minor. Maybe at a lot of matches, especially ones that don't have 8, 8, 8 and 8 arrays.So, for all intents and purposes, shooting SS minor would be like shooting Production. Reloads might be a touch slower due to tapered mags in Production but a better first shot trigger (and if George does your trigger job), better every shot trigger.Are you with me so far?So I was comparing Area combined results between Production and SS (almost always shot in major). Production GMs consistently beat SS GM's in combined results.Does that mean that Production GMs are better than SS GMs or does it mean that 10 rounds, even at minor, beat 8 rounds. How many standing reloads does one have to do in a match to make 10 rd minor better?Let the bitterness and vitriol spew forth....And just so you know, I held a belief for a long time that 9mm shooters are girly men. Hell, anyone that didn't shoot a .45 (God's caliber) was a girly man. Watching Glock Pilot will open your eyes for ya....
     

    midget

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    I had seen some information a while back where a couple guys took several stages (non-classifier) and broke them down base on shooting strategy. I wish I could find the link. However, it was determined that the on average, one extra reload you would have to do, is not worth the point drop going to minor.
    Though you could always live by my motto (I wish I could), just shoot all alphas..
    edit... the only foreseeable advantage would be in a very high hit factor stage with 18+ rounds.
     

    Rob377

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    I've been saying it for awhile. Even posted graphs and tables and whatnot with data-based analysis. Everyone thinks I'm batty though.
     

    jakemartens

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    Rob Simmons will come forth and probably post some charts and graphs
    but it is almost a wash in most cases, but if you are shooting lots of charlies and deltas you are (F)^cked
     

    cschwanz

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    If it were feasible to be competitive shooting SS minor and win, people would do it. There are very very few SS Minor shooters at major matches (at least the ones that go minor on purpose, lol). I'd say there is a reason for it. Ill take the points from shooting Major everytime over minor.

    Same comparison can be made in limited. Shooting Lim minor you can have mags with 23-35 rounds in the gun. But no one does it...
     

    BillD

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    Limited Minor is a little different. You'll still have to do one reload on a field course. With 10 rd minor, you could probably skip reloads, that's about 1.5-2 seconds per for me.Rob has always been batty, nothing new.Then why do top Production shooters beat top SS shooters at Area matches?
     

    Rob377

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    Limited Minor is a little different. You'll still have to do one reload on a field course. With 10 rd minor, you could probably skip reloads, that's about 1.5-2 seconds per for me.Rob has always been batty, nothing new.Then why do top Production shooters beat top SS shooters at Area matches?

    Because everyone knows Glocks are way more accurate with better triggers than 1911s.
     

    midget

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    Limited Minor is a little different. You'll still have to do one reload on a field course. With 10 rd minor, you could probably skip reloads, that's about 1.5-2 seconds per for me.Rob has always been batty, nothing new.Then why do top Production shooters beat top SS shooters at Area matches?

    I am kind of curious about this now. What match are you using as reference?
     

    cschwanz

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    How many Production GMs are there, a bajillion? How many SS GMs are there, like 15? Numbers alone gives them more chances to win. Now at that level they are all good.

    I can see where on some field courses having the extra 2 rounds would be nice. Hell I've shot matches and wished I had the extra rounds here and there. But talk to a lot of production shooters, just bc you can shoot all 10, doesn't mean you have to. A lot of them are reloading everytime you move your feet just like SS shooters do (or should).

    You might be able to save 1.5 seconds on 3 of the 5 stages of a local match where you can skip a reload. Thats 4.5 seconds. How many points down can you lose shooting minor over major until it becomes a wash. Depends on the HF of the stages, etc but I dont think itd be there. If you are a good enough shooter and can shoot 95% Alphas in a match then it may become a more viable option. For those who shank a few Cs and Ds every now and then, you will lose those added seconds fast.

    I still think looking at the major matches is your answer. How many people are going to opt for minor later this month in Pasa? If there was an edge to be gained by doing it, wouldnt the big dogs of the sport be taking advantage of it already?
     

    Rob377

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    Rob Simmons will come forth and probably post some charts and graphs
    but it is almost a wash in most cases, but if you are shooting lots of charlies and deltas you are (F)^cked

    Well, since you asked....


    2013Area2Scatterplot_zps673fd644.jpg
     

    rvb

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    I've been of the opinion for a long we have too many divisions. I think L10/Prod/SS could be combined (ok, honestly I think L10 should be scrapped and Ss/Prod combined). The differences in the divisions are so minor, I think the equipment advantages largely wash out... I wouldn't care what the final rules looked like... either a 10-round game for all (all minor), or 8-maj/10-min... whatever...

    skinny mags vs wide bodies, 1911 triggers vs striker junk, DA/SA, who cares. Bring your near-production, minimally modified mass production gun and shoot it against the rest. Make sure it fits in the box, merge the SS/prod rules into something that makes sense, and let HF sort it out.

    As to the specific question of 8-round maj vs 10-round min, I think you have to use 4 mags on a 32-round course no matter what, but you get a little more room for stage planning and make-up shots w/ minor which washes out most of the scoring advantage of major. Sometimes 8-maj has to do an extra reload based on stage design or make-up shots. The answer is going to be largely stage specific. It's no where near the divide the revo capacity/PF issue is (which forces two more reloads regardless of stage breakdown).

    -rvb
     

    midget

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    After looking through last year's area championships, it doesn't look like there is enough data (statistically speaking) to make a direct comparison between them.
    Also, you cannot take just a single match to make a comparison.

    Damn...Time to do a double edit... I have an easy way for us to find this out. Send Ryan out to the range, give him a SS and let him use his Prod... See what comes of it.. lol
     

    cschwanz

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    are you curious about 9mm? Or girly men?

    :)

    -rvb

    :laugh:


    Quick number crunching:
    2012 SS Nats: 29 minor shooters out of 301 total. 2 in the top 50
    2013 SS Nats: 46 minor shooters out of 363 total. 5 in the top 50

    In 2013, Dave Sevigny finished 2nd shooting Minor. I don't know if that was a chrono screwup or choice though. The minor "trend" may be growing a little bit. It'll be interesting to see the numbers after this year's match to see. The top echelon of shooters for the most part are still all shooting 8 rounds major guns though. Thats good enough reason for me to keep shooting major when I can.
     

    smith52

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    I've been asked several times about what the advantage to shooting minor SS is, I don't believe there is an advantage. I don't believe Minor scoring is the disadvantage that it gets made out to be in SS. It work out for me fairly well at this year IN SS/Prod/Revo match.


    Besides, I like shooting my STI purse guns!
     
    Last edited:

    Rob377

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    I've been asked several times about what the advantage to shooting minor SS is, I don't believe there is an advantage. I don't believe Minor scoring is the disadvantage that it gets made out to be in SS. It work out for me fairly well at this year IN SS/Prod/Revo match.

    This is what the data say, as well. It's a wash. Over the course of a match, the extra rounds and reduced recoil make up for the point lost on a charlie or delta.
     

    jakemartens

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    I've been of the opinion for a long we have too many divisions. I think L10/Prod/SS could be combined (ok, honestly I think L10 should be scrapped and Ss/Prod combined). The differences in the divisions are so minor, I think the equipment advantages largely wash out... I wouldn't care what the final rules looked like... either a 10-round game for all (all minor), or 8-maj/10-min... whatever...

    skinny mags vs wide bodies, 1911 triggers vs striker junk, DA/SA, who cares. Bring your near-production, minimally modified mass production gun and shoot it against the rest. Make sure it fits in the box, merge the SS/prod rules into something that makes sense, and let HF sort it out.

    As to the specific question of 8-round maj vs 10-round min, I think you have to use 4 mags on a 32-round course no matter what, but you get a little more room for stage planning and make-up shots w/ minor which washes out most of the scoring advantage of major. Sometimes 8-maj has to do an extra reload based on stage design or make-up shots. The answer is going to be largely stage specific. It's no where near the divide the revo capacity/PF issue is (which forces two more reloads regardless of stage breakdown).

    -rvb

    I have said this as well,
    single stack into production 8 round major 10 round minor
    let production gun stick magwells on there.

    or production should go 15 rounds

    limited 10 should go away
     
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